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Walls Framed To Floor Ply

 
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:32 PM   #1
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Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Had a framer who wanted to frame walls all the way to the underside of the floor ply above - for walls parallel to joists above only. Using TJIs, this eliminates one joist, filler, and awkward insulation/poly install, as well as improving thermal performance.

I can't think of any downside to this, other than not being able to use precut studs. Can anyone see problems with this? Used it before?
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:21 PM   #2
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Haven't heard of that in years.
Years ago I framed a lot of raised ranches and would frame the end knee walls up to the height of the floor joist top.

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Old 04-15-2009, 04:34 PM   #3
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Balloon frame hybrid.

Out west a lot of guys frame gable ends like that. All the way to the top of truss or rafter.

I have not seen it through the floor system as you described though. Dunno why
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:01 PM   #4
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Not through the floor.

As an example, in a simple box - instead of framing 4 exterior walls all to the same height, the two end walls are framed 11 7/8" taller. No rim board, no filler joist. Top of joists are at same elevation as top plate of end walls.

Obviously Roy has seen more than me - I've never seen this, but it does make some sense to me. I'm insulating that detail now in a bi-level, and a continuous stud space through that area would be a lot warmer and tidier.

Just wondering about the downside.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:40 PM   #5
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


I was saying the same thing but not well I guess.
Up through through the floor system to the the top of joist would be more accurate. Same as the gable example I was giving.
Interlocking the plates in the corners is gone if that matters.
Here there has to be fire blocking in a wall over 8 ft so I guess you would get into that in most cases too.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:55 PM   #6
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Got me thinking about those days.

It was in the late 70's. Subdivisions of homes- the developer was quite a character. He had card games 2 afternoons a week with a couple of other builders and the town inspectors. When the electrician or plumber needed an inspection the developer just grabbed a signed tag out of his glove-box!!
Scary now that I think about it.

But back to the thread. Other than clearing it with the local inspector I can't think why it would be a problem. Except the mentioned concern with fire blocking.

We used to just add a 2x4 on the flat for a strapping nailer. These were T111 direct application with let-in bracing.

Things weren't that "technical" back then. It was all hand nailed framing- no guns. I can remember getting little "splashes" from some of the wet (PAD) 2x stock when you slammed in the spikes. Spend the day hand nailing a big colonial full of strapping and you knew you worked. Your arm was almost to sore to lift the required end of day beers-- I said almost!
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:25 PM   #7
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Quote:
Originally Posted by pegasush View Post
Had a framer who wanted to frame walls all the way to the underside of the floor ply above - for walls parallel to joists above only. Using TJIs, this eliminates one joist, filler, and awkward insulation/poly install, as well as improving thermal performance.

I can't think of any downside to this, other than not being able to use precut studs. Can anyone see problems with this? Used it before?
I've ran my concrete/foundation to the bottom of the subfloor, ( with a sill of course). Sometimes i wanted to raise the grade on on one side of the building for one reason or another and this method could raise you 11 inches or so and still get you your wood to earth seperation.
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:51 PM   #8
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Why would a framer want to do that? Would you build the wall after you had the floor laid?I don't think it would be worth the trouble.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:06 PM   #9
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


I think you would have poor connection with your corners. There are ways to alleviate that, but this method doesn't sound effective at all.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:18 PM   #10
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Seem like alot of work to eliminate a couple joists. Still have to have a drywall nailer, and draft stops if the nailer isn't full joist size. We used to have to do firestops on 9' walls, but code enforcement doesn't require it anymore in Ocean City.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:58 PM   #11
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Quote:
Originally Posted by pegasush View Post
Had a framer who wanted to frame walls all the way to the underside of the floor ply above - for walls parallel to joists above only. Using TJIs, this eliminates one joist, filler, and awkward insulation/poly install, as well as improving thermal performance.

I can't think of any downside to this, other than not being able to use precut studs. Can anyone see problems with this? Used it before?

like this?

I do it this way as often as possible.

It's faster and stronger, eliminates the crossblocks @ 4'o/c. I recommend trying it,

locally I have passed the last 10 houses doing it this way, I don't think there are fire blocking reg's locally, so you may want to check that.

Imo the walls are full of fiberglass, so that is a fireblock in itself.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:57 PM   #12
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Got a reno/addition with a wood basement coming up. I'll try it there with the 2x8 bsmt wall framing.

Better beef for the deck ledger anyhow.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:30 PM   #13
 
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Here in the United States, you can't do that. Some of you were correct, here's why: "Top plates-bearing wall intersections and corners must overlap IRC 602.3 .2 UBC 2320.11 .2

We also require structural sheathing at all corners, and every 25 feet IRC 602.10 .3 UBC 2320.11 .3-3 which in turn requires framing or blocking at all edges with specific nailing. IRC 602.1 0.7 UBC 231 5.5.3"

If we ran the walls high into the floor cavity, we would be required to fire block each stud bay and connecting floor space. "Block at ceiling and floor levels, IRC 602.8 UBC 708.2 .1 or used glass fiber tightly packed IRC 602.8 .1 UBC 708.2 .2 and at least 16 inches long IRC 60 2.8.1.1 and at closed spaces every 10 feet IRC 602.8 UBC 708.2 .1"

So our inspector could: require you get engineering, because you changed the rim joist, which was part of the engineered floor; require the extra fire stopping with insulation that the builder didn't want to spend the extra $200 on; (unless the basement was left unfinished) Then it would be up to the owner, to put in the fire blocking when he finished his basement, which I doubt he would do unless he's really sharp. So he would be left with a potential fire path. As well as a structurally unsafe building that doesn't meet our minimum code.(the corners)


So saving $50 labor cost would end up costing almost 10 times that.

In your picture, we have to run the end of the header to the first common stud in the closest shear panel, within 5 feet of the corner.
And that shear panel would be a minimum of 37 inches wide, with solid blocking.

To learn more about our UBC and IRC codes, Home Depot and Lowe's carry a small booklet called Code Check Building for $17.00, higher in Canada.

That's where I got this current information, of the 2003 code. You can also go online to get the current 2006 update code updates. Be safe, GBAR
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:21 PM   #14
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Quote:
Here in the United States, you can't do that.
That's a pretty broad statement. Most of Colorado doesn't even have a building inspector and no code has been adopted.

I've worked in counties in NC with no building requirements.

And top plates don't overlap in many situations such as ballon walls .
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:21 PM   #15
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBAR View Post
Here in the United States, you can't do that. Some of you were correct, here's why: "Top plates-bearing wall intersections and corners must overlap IRC 602.3 .2 UBC 2320.11 .2

We also require structural sheathing at all corners, and every 25 feet IRC 602.10 .3 UBC 2320.11 .3-3 which in turn requires framing or blocking at all edges with specific nailing. IRC 602.1 0.7 UBC 231 5.5.3"

If we ran the walls high into the floor cavity, we would be required to fire block each stud bay and connecting floor space. "Block at ceiling and floor levels, IRC 602.8 UBC 708.2 .1 or used glass fiber tightly packed IRC 602.8 .1 UBC 708.2 .2 and at least 16 inches long IRC 60 2.8.1.1 and at closed spaces every 10 feet IRC 602.8 UBC 708.2 .1"

So our inspector could: require you get engineering, because you changed the rim joist, which was part of the engineered floor; require the extra fire stopping with insulation that the builder didn't want to spend the extra $200 on; (unless the basement was left unfinished) Then it would be up to the owner, to put in the fire blocking when he finished his basement, which I doubt he would do unless he's really sharp. So he would be left with a potential fire path. As well as a structurally unsafe building that doesn't meet our minimum code.(the corners)


So saving $50 labor cost would end up costing almost 10 times that.

In your picture, we have to run the end of the header to the first common stud in the closest shear panel, within 5 feet of the corner.
And that shear panel would be a minimum of 37 inches wide, with solid blocking.

To learn more about our UBC and IRC codes, Home Depot and Lowe's carry a small booklet called Code Check Building for $17.00, higher in Canada.

That's where I got this current information, of the 2003 code. You can also go online to get the current 2006 update code updates. Be safe, GBAR

well, The engineer did aprove this. Said it was stronger actually. (I agree). As far as being a structally unsafe building, Not a chance.

To seperate those walls, The wall sheathing would have to be literally be pulled apart. I would trust this more than 4 nails in a top plate. If I'm not mistaking, is there not houses being built that have single top plates? (advanced building techniques)?


Again, no fire blocking required here.

I do have a question though.

How do the fireblocking rules work with exterior walls, that are filled with insulation?

If the cavity is filled with fiberglass, how the hell would a flame travel up a cavity that isn't even an open cavity?

Last edited by JT Wood; 04-20-2009 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:43 PM   #16
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Insulation is fireblocking in my area. Fire's pretty much stuck.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:00 PM   #17
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Quote:
Originally Posted by GBAR View Post

In your picture, we have to run the end of the header to the first common stud in the closest shear panel, within 5 feet of the corner.
And that shear panel would be a minimum of 37 inches wide, with solid blocking.

I don't know what you mean here. The window has to be further in?

What's a shear panel?
what do you mean solid blocking on the shear panel?

Not being a smart ass, The terminology must be diffrent.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:01 PM   #18
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


In this part of the U.S. you can and we do.
We try to frame any ext. wall that does not bear joist as a tall wall.
Party walls that run the same direction as floor are tall.

I think it is a better connection rather than the hinge point you can get with a truss or joist along the whole legnth of the walls.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:05 PM   #19
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Originally Posted by GBAR
Here in the United States, you can't do that. Some of you were correct, here's why: "Top plates-bearing wall intersections and corners must overlap IRC 602.3 .2 UBC 2320.11 .2


Did a house last summer the same way, but with no headers over the knee wall windows. The genius Archy who's house it was forgot about the size of the floor truss when he drew in his windows. Engineer said it was fine as long as the window above lined up directly above it. I pesonally didn't like the fact that the top plates were not tied together put I suppose its all wrapped in ply. One thing we can't do is not have a nailing block on a ply joint. Apparantly its a sway point.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:38 AM   #20
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Re: Walls Framed To Floor Ply


Quote:
Originally Posted by hughjazz View Post
well, The engineer did aprove this. Said it was stronger actually. (I agree). As far as being a structally unsafe building, Not a chance.

To seperate those walls, The wall sheathing would have to be literally be pulled apart. I would trust this more than 4 nails in a top plate. If I'm not mistaking, is there not houses being built that have single top plates? (advanced building techniques)?


Again, no fire blocking required here.

I do have a question though.

How do the fireblocking rules work with exterior walls, that are filled with insulation?

If the cavity is filled with fiberglass, how the hell would a flame travel up a cavity that isn't even an open cavity?
I did a lot of research on fireblocking for an article in JLC last fall. I was amazed at how much the inspectors disagreed with each other and the code. The 2006 IRC does state that fiberglass insulation eliminates the need for fireblocking as long as it is at least 16" long.


Regarding the overlapping wall plates requirement, I would think that an A-35 would work. At least the engineer we use would probably spec that just to satisfy the inspector, all our walls are tied together by the sheathing, plus you'll have rim there that when covered by sheathing is going to tie everything together pretty well.

We have run walls up like that for shearwalls where the floors sheathing was then nailed directly into the wall. Same thing for some rakewall shearwalls that tie into the roof sheathing.

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