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Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam

 
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:52 PM   #1
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Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


What is the difference?

I've got a project next summer where I've got to repair a post that's kicking out because of a failed incorrect repair done years ago. Going from what I've seen, the post rotted or was damaged in the lower few feet. That section was cut off and a block from a larger piece was placed under it with nothing tying the post to the new piece. It appears that the bottom of the post is now tipping out from the building. This post is part of a latter addition to the barn as a Horse stall area, so it may be constructed slightly differently than the rest of the barn. The guy who did all the work in converting it to a living space truly had no idea what he was doing. An example is the removal of the diagonal braces from a number of posts, in order to place windows exactly where the owner said she wanted them. She would have willingly moved them a few feet on order to not compromise structure but it was never brought up, He just hacked them out. All or most of this work was done 30-40 years ago, so no inspections or anything were required on his work.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:37 PM   #2
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Really what my question is what is the difference as it relates to my problem. Right now, what I'm figureing on doing is to jack the weight off of the existing post, replace the oversized block with one the same dimensions as the post, then sister on 2x material as high on the post as I can go, on both exposed interior faces of the post, then placing 8x8 posts on both interior sides of the post to take some of the weight off the compromised post.

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Old 02-07-2013, 06:54 PM   #3
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


My appologies in advance for being a pecker wad.

Post and beam is any construction with posts and beams, as opposed to stick framed, which in reality is just a $h!t load of posts and a beam, or and kind of trussed construction, or any kind of solid infill, like a masonry wall.

Timber-frame has come to mean the traditional construction technique of (usually) hand cut, wood joints, such as mortise and tenon, to build essentially a post and beam structure.

How that difference affects your repair technique, I can't fathom.

Whether an "Apartment Maintainance Technician" should be attempting such a repair........

As for possible fixes, if it is post and beam, first thing I'd do is have my engineer look at it and come up with some solutions. Probably won't be an, "Aw shucks, jus' scab a dang TwoBuhFour in 'ere," kind of solution.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:21 PM   #4
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


My question originates from the way the frame of the building seems to be working. By your definition it is a timberframe, the original structure is all interlocking wood with wooden pegs. What confuses me is that the way this one is constructed means that the bents were raised as only a beam(to support the second floor) with a post on each end with top and bottom diagonal braces to keep the joint square. then a beam was raised up 2 stories to be placed across the tops of the posts. I was curoius as to whether this had an affect.

The more I look into it the more I'm finding this type of repair is quite common. Normally a half lap scarf joint is used to joint the upper and lower pieces. If I can accomplish that, I may be able to omit the 2x's since there functuon was to stabilize the but joint.





http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads...er=6493&page=1
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:29 PM   #5
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Doesn't sound like you should touch this one without an engineer. A timber framer might be able to diagnose the issue and fix it but you aren't a timber framer. I'm with the pecker wad on this one. Learning that kind of thing on the job is only okay if you have professional supervision and the customer's consent.

And what's a "bent"?
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:52 PM   #6
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Definition of a bent:

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A bent in American English is a framework composed of several structural members that defines the cross-section of a timber frame building or supports a trestle. In British English this assembly is called a "cross frame". The term bent is probably an archaic past tense of the verb to bind, referring to the way the timbers of a bent are joined together. Similar word in Dutch is bint (gebint),[1] in Frysian is bynt and in German is bind. Compare this with the term bend for a class of knots.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bent_%28structural%29
Part of why I'm doing all this research is so i know what to expect. This project won't even be possible until this summer. From what I've found so far, this is a common, relatively straightforward repair. Other things I've had to deal with at that place are much more complicated. The owner is a friend of mine on this one and I'll probably only get money for materials.

Basically, I've already got everything planned out and am looking for a input on anything I may have forgotten.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:52 PM   #7
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


the bent loosely defined is a truss..maybe the combined parts that make up the roof support structure from the post would be more accurate?

the bent on the front of this house is called a hammerbeam truss
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:53 PM   #8
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Yes, scarf joints are commonly used to repair rotted posts, but as you will learn, there are literally hundreds of scarf joints extant. Jack Sobon wrote a book detailing some of the ones he has seen in america. Truly fascinating. But I digress.

Cutting a scarf joint in place, that will handle the loads inposed on it, and look good, is a task for a true Timber-frame enthusiast.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:58 PM   #9
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Timber framed buildings are made up of a series of "bents", most commonly 12 feet on center. It consists of the 2 posts, the top plate, knee braces, tie beam, and sometimes the roof rafters, king post, queen post, hammerbeam, or other roof member. Sometimes the roof members are added after the bents are raised.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:05 PM   #10
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


timber frame uses wooden pegs and mortise/tennon

post and beam uses mechanical fasteners.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:06 PM   #11
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


what is the foundation?rubble?many times in old barns the post are buried on top of a flat rock
usually old barns are dismantled,the frame cleaned and placed on a new foundation with sips for sheathing
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:09 PM   #12
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


There are 1,000-year-old Timber-Framed buildings all over Europe, all sitting on dry-stacked stone foundations.

Stone doesn't soak up water like concrete does, so you don't have the same rot issues.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:10 PM   #13
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


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Originally Posted by A.T.C. View Post
Yes, scarf joints are commonly used to repair rotted posts, but as you will learn, there are literally hundreds of scarf joints extant. Jack Sobon wrote a book detailing some of the ones he has seen in america. Truly fascinating. But I digress.

Cutting a scarf joint in place, that will handle the loads inposed on it, and look good, is a task for a true Timber-frame enthusiast.
The looks aren't important as it will be hidden within a wall. This will also reinforced by several 8x8 posts to reduce the amount of load on the original post. I'm open to almost any repair that's going to solve the problem for 15-20 years. The lady that lives there doesn't expect to be alive that many more decades. No one is going to move into this place after that unless they spend a lot of money of fixing it. Put simply, she lives in a mostly weatherized barn.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:10 PM   #14
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Just re-read the post.

Yea, burying a post in the dirt ain't gonna help it.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:12 PM   #15
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


Quote:
Originally Posted by A.T.C. View Post
There are 1,000-year-old Timber-Framed buildings all over Europe, all sitting on dry-stacked stone foundations.

Stone doesn't soak up water like concrete does, so you don't have the same rot issues.
That may be why this particular post rotted, the ground is right up level with the foundation and it's always very wet.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #16
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


The knee braces that were cut out are a little disconcerting, too.

That's the lateral bracing on a timber frame.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:47 PM   #17
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


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Originally Posted by A.T.C. View Post
The knee braces that were cut out are a little disconcerting, too.

That's the lateral bracing on a timber frame.
Judging from the notches in the posts I'd guess a tie-beam has been removed on the 2 bents in the middle. These are also the same bents that have the knee brace removed.

This place has been standing like this for close to 40 years, My goal is to get another 15-20 out of it.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:43 PM   #18
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:32 PM   #19
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Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam


When u re do it make sure to put down l 3/4 PVC between the bottom of the post an ground to stop problem....

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