|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
![]() |
#1 | ||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
What is the difference?
I've got a project next summer where I've got to repair a post that's kicking out because of a failed incorrect repair done years ago. Going from what I've seen, the post rotted or was damaged in the lower few feet. That section was cut off and a block from a larger piece was placed under it with nothing tying the post to the new piece. It appears that the bottom of the post is now tipping out from the building. This post is part of a latter addition to the barn as a Horse stall area, so it may be constructed slightly differently than the rest of the barn. The guy who did all the work in converting it to a living space truly had no idea what he was doing. An example is the removal of the diagonal braces from a number of posts, in order to place windows exactly where the owner said she wanted them. She would have willingly moved them a few feet on order to not compromise structure but it was never brought up, He just hacked them out. All or most of this work was done 30-40 years ago, so no inspections or anything were required on his work.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Dustincoc; 02-07-2013 at 06:32 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task! |
Advertisement |
|
![]() |
#2 | ||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
Really what my question is what is the difference as it relates to my problem. Right now, what I'm figureing on doing is to jack the weight off of the existing post, replace the oversized block with one the same dimensions as the post, then sister on 2x material as high on the post as I can go, on both exposed interior faces of the post, then placing 8x8 posts on both interior sides of the post to take some of the weight off the compromised post.
Advertisement
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
My appologies in advance for being a pecker wad.
Post and beam is any construction with posts and beams, as opposed to stick framed, which in reality is just a $h!t load of posts and a beam, or and kind of trussed construction, or any kind of solid infill, like a masonry wall. Timber-frame has come to mean the traditional construction technique of (usually) hand cut, wood joints, such as mortise and tenon, to build essentially a post and beam structure. How that difference affects your repair technique, I can't fathom. Whether an "Apartment Maintainance Technician" should be attempting such a repair........ ![]() As for possible fixes, if it is post and beam, first thing I'd do is have my engineer look at it and come up with some solutions. Probably won't be an, "Aw shucks, jus' scab a dang TwoBuhFour in 'ere," kind of solution. |
![]() |
![]() |
Sponsored Links | |||
Advertisement |
|
![]() |
#4 | ||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
My question originates from the way the frame of the building seems to be working. By your definition it is a timberframe, the original structure is all interlocking wood with wooden pegs. What confuses me is that the way this one is constructed means that the bents were raised as only a beam(to support the second floor) with a post on each end with top and bottom diagonal braces to keep the joint square. then a beam was raised up 2 stories to be placed across the tops of the posts. I was curoius as to whether this had an affect.
The more I look into it the more I'm finding this type of repair is quite common. Normally a half lap scarf joint is used to joint the upper and lower pieces. If I can accomplish that, I may be able to omit the 2x's since there functuon was to stabilize the but joint. ![]() ![]() http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads...er=6493&page=1
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to Dustincoc For This Useful Post: |
Tom Struble (02-07-2013)
|
![]() |
#5 |
Talking Head
Trade: Poking Things With Sticks
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 5,350
Rewards Points: 358
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
Doesn't sound like you should touch this one without an engineer. A timber framer might be able to diagnose the issue and fix it but you aren't a timber framer. I'm with the pecker wad on this one.
![]() And what's a "bent"? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
Definition of a bent:
Quote:
Basically, I've already got everything planned out and am looking for a input on anything I may have forgotten.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Dustincoc; 02-07-2013 at 07:58 PM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Pro
![]() Trade: siding
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: west milford n.j.
Posts: 17,271
Rewards Points: 20
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
the bent loosely defined is a truss..maybe the combined parts that make up the roof support structure from the post would be more accurate?
the bent on the front of this house is called a hammerbeam truss
__________________
Tom Last edited by Tom Struble; 02-07-2013 at 07:58 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
Yes, scarf joints are commonly used to repair rotted posts, but as you will learn, there are literally hundreds of scarf joints extant. Jack Sobon wrote a book detailing some of the ones he has seen in america. Truly fascinating. But I digress.
Cutting a scarf joint in place, that will handle the loads inposed on it, and look good, is a task for a true Timber-frame enthusiast. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
Timber framed buildings are made up of a series of "bents", most commonly 12 feet on center. It consists of the 2 posts, the top plate, knee braces, tie beam, and sometimes the roof rafters, king post, queen post, hammerbeam, or other roof member. Sometimes the roof members are added after the bents are raised.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |
Nail-Bender
Trade: Carpenter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Posts: 4,604
Rewards Points: 2,020
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
timber frame uses wooden pegs and mortise/tennon
post and beam uses mechanical fasteners.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
The Following User Says Thank You to Brutus For This Useful Post: |
Gaboy (06-26-2014)
|
![]() |
#11 |
Pro
![]() Trade: siding
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: west milford n.j.
Posts: 17,271
Rewards Points: 20
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
what is the foundation?rubble?many times in old barns the post are buried on top of a flat rock
usually old barns are dismantled,the frame cleaned and placed on a new foundation with sips for sheathing
__________________
Tom |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
There are 1,000-year-old Timber-Framed buildings all over Europe, all sitting on dry-stacked stone foundations.
Stone doesn't soak up water like concrete does, so you don't have the same rot issues. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & BeamQuote:
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Dustincoc; 02-07-2013 at 08:14 PM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
Just re-read the post.
Yea, burying a post in the dirt ain't gonna help it. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 | ||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
That may be why this particular post rotted, the ground is right up level with the foundation and it's always very wet.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam
The knee braces that were cut out are a little disconcerting, too.
That's the lateral bracing on a timber frame. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 | |||
Boondockian
Trade: Getting the job done
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canton-Potsdam Area, NY
Posts: 1,478
Rewards Points: 1,018
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & BeamQuote:
This place has been standing like this for close to 40 years, My goal is to get another 15-20 out of it.
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Goin' Down in Flames....
Trade: Highwayman
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere Between Heaven And Hell
Posts: 4,213
Rewards Points: 766
|
Re: Timber Frame Vs Post & Beam![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Timber frame building {scafolding} | teepee | Construction | 24 | 12-13-2012 02:01 AM |
New to this forum but not working with wood/construction. | Jim_Rogers | New Member Introductions | 27 | 11-13-2011 12:13 AM |
Cantilevered beam in basement | LetItBeLEED | Framing | 6 | 12-01-2009 10:56 PM |
Deck too low for notched post and beam support? | DaveNJ | Decks & Fencing | 23 | 11-02-2009 07:10 AM |
Go to Page... |