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Rafter Ties And Collar Ties

 
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:00 PM   #1
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Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


We are working on a project and have a plan checker raising concerns about collar ties being used in conjunction with rafter ties. I've never heard of this being a problem, almost always have them in addition to the rafter ties/ceiling joists. She mentioned something about 'consider the tension from the collar ties'.

As collar ties are usually in compression I think she might be off base but she's smart and I thought I'd check here to get opinions on it. I was looking online and didn't see anything regarding the issue and plan on discussing it with her when I see her.

Thanks...........
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:07 PM   #2
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


I don't really understand what she is talking about. I don't think she does either. They are both needed and serve different purposes. I guess its really the same purpose to keep things from moving but in a completely different direction.

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Old 05-06-2019, 05:28 PM   #3
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Last I knew, for a gable roof, both are code required.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:42 PM   #4
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


The only thing I could see is if the designer raised the rafter ties above the plate beyond the one third rule triggering some other force like storage. Maybe the need for beefier rafter due to flex.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:53 PM   #5
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


I have no idea what she's talking about. You have a picture?

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Old 05-06-2019, 06:57 PM   #6
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio View Post
We are working on a project and have a plan checker raising concerns about collar ties being used in conjunction with rafter ties. I've never heard of this being a problem, almost always have them in addition to the rafter ties/ceiling joists. She mentioned something about 'consider the tension from the collar ties'.

As collar ties are usually in compression I think she might be off base but she's smart and I thought I'd check here to get opinions on it. I was looking online and didn't see anything regarding the issue and plan on discussing it with her when I see her.

Thanks...........
When collar ties are in upper 3rd they are in tension and are there to keep the rafters from separating from the ridge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 05-06-2019, 07:12 PM   #7
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Rafter tie and color tie are different things and suit a different purpose.

Here is IRC 2015 code explaining some of it.

R802.3.1 Ceiling joist and rafter connections.

Ceiling joists and rafters shall be nailed to each other in accordance with Table R802.5.1(9), and the rafter shall be nailed to the top wall plate in accordance with Table R602.3(1). Ceiling joists shall be continuous or securely joined in accordance with Table R802.5.1(9) where they meet over interior partitions and are nailed to
adjacent rafters to provide a continuous tie across the building where such joists are parallel to the rafters.

Where ceiling joists are not connected to the rafters at the top wall plate, joists connected higher in the attic shall be installed as rafter ties, or rafter ties shall be installed to provide a continuous tie.

Where ceiling joists are not parallel to rafters, rafter ties shall be installed. Rafter ties shall be not less than 2 inches by 4 inches (51
mm by 102 mm) (nominal), installed in accordance with the connection requirements in Table R802.5.1(9), or connections of equivalent capacities shall be provided.

Where ceiling joists or rafter ties are not provided, the ridge formed by these rafters shall be supported by a wall or girder designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice.

Collar ties or ridge straps to resist wind uplift shall be connected in the upper third of the attic space in accordance with Table R602.3(1).
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:16 PM   #8
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Yeah at if he's over the one third limit off the plate and using it for storage......those collar ties are now assisting.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:43 PM   #9
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepinggiant View Post
When collar ties are in upper 3rd they are in tension and are there to keep the rafters from separating from the ridge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
While that can be the case, it doesn't always apply. Sometimes rafter ties are used to help over-spanned rafters bear the roof load, in which case they'd be in compression.

Aside from that, the main usage is to resist wind uplift, in which case they would be under tension.

But with properly sized rafters in conjunction with rafter ties or floor joists, they are rarely needed for typical roofs.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:49 PM   #10
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


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Originally Posted by Tom M View Post
Yeah at if he's over the one third limit off the plate and using it for storage......those collar ties are now assisting.
If it's outside code, it has to be stamped. If that's what is going on, it's the LPE's call. A plain Jane designer can't do it.

Since we don't know the actual issue, it's tough to say much.

If the person with the stamp says rafter ties only, that's a good enough answer. It"s pretty easy to slap collar ties on every 4th rafter even when it's completed.
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:58 PM   #11
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Well, maybe she's not as smart as I thought. I've always done both, this particular scenario is for a porch roof and it's not very big so they wouldn't really be doing much, the bottom is soffited and it's also going to be strapped across the top rafter to rafter.

I'm seeing her on Thursday, will go over it with her and post up what she has to say about it. Thanks everybody for all the information.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:07 PM   #12
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


If it is strapped across the top rafter to rafter, code says collar ties aren't required.
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:47 AM   #13
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


I have to admit I'm confused! I like pictures!

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Old 05-08-2019, 08:57 AM   #14
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Vaulted ceiling, yeah or nah
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:07 AM   #15
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Snipped this from Greg's post to make it easy to see collar ties or straps in the code:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
Rafter tie and color tie are different things and suit a different purpose.

Here is IRC 2015 code explaining some of it.

R802.3.1 Ceiling joist and rafter connections.



Collar ties or ridge straps to resist wind uplift shall be connected in the upper third of the attic space in accordance with Table R602.3(1).
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Old Today, 04:59 PM   #16
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


We had our conversation, she is smart, book smart. She'd made a boo boo, thought the ridge board was a ridge beam and was saying if it was a load carrying ridge beam then if one uses collar ties one has created a truss assembly and there's a point load at each collar tie to rafter connection.

I wanted to get more information from her on it but she was pressed for time and the only other thing she said was it would be a wind load, not a seismic load.
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Old Today, 06:34 PM   #17
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio View Post
We had our conversation, she is smart, book smart. She'd made a boo boo, thought the ridge board was a ridge beam and was saying if it was a load carrying ridge beam then if one uses collar ties one has created a truss assembly and there's a point load at each collar tie to rafter connection.

I wanted to get more information from her on it but she was pressed for time and the only other thing she said was it would be a wind load, not a seismic load.
So if you use a properly sized ridge beam with the weight carried down to the foundation and install collar ties(even if they're just to create a ceiling) you have some how created an adverse situation? I'm still confused.

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Old Today, 08:34 PM   #18
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepinggiant View Post
So if you use a properly sized ridge beam with the weight carried down to the foundation and install collar ties(even if they're just to create a ceiling) you have some how created an adverse situation? I'm still confused.

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They always create a point load. No big deal
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Old Today, 10:16 PM   #19
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Re: Rafter Ties And Collar Ties


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepinggiant View Post
So if you use a properly sized ridge beam with the weight carried down to the foundation and install collar ties(even if they're just to create a ceiling) you have some how created an adverse situation? I'm still confused.

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I don't think she was saying it was an adverse situation, just another thing that in her opinion should be taken into consideration, probably more so with larger loads.

This is just a small entry porch, hardly any room for collar ties as it is, not to mention it's not a ridge beam but for a big open space it might be another story.

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