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Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun

 
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:27 PM   #21
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by FRAMERBEN View Post
I like the guns, but it really helps to know how to use and swing your hammer. On our crew, you are not allowed to use a gun for about the first 3 months +. This allows the new guys to get comfortable in the situation they are in, eliminating that as a possible cause of shooting yourself. Also, it forces them to somewhat develop a basis for their hammering skill.
Yes. Master the hammer's fundamentals first.

When I shingle, on every job, I make it a habit to do a section by hand...just to keep that familiarity with the roof. When I'm using my gun a lot, I look for places where I can use my framing hammer too. It's like keeping in touch with the nature of the work...like keeping it organic in a way.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:56 PM   #22
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by RobertCDF View Post
CO2 is much better because you dont have to buy any new guns. And any one of your guys can use it on his fav gun.

Trust me get the CO2 you wont look back... Mostly because I HATE using any gun but MY hitachi with no spring
Hey robert, how many shots do you get on one of those little co2 tanks? I was eyeing it up myself.

I usually use all guns, except maybe a real small thing. But even if its a real small trim job air nails look a lot nicer cause of the small hole they leave and no risk of hammer damage.
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Old 03-13-2008, 11:27 PM   #23
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by dkillianjr View Post
Hey robert, how many shots do you get on one of those little co2 tanks? I was eyeing it up myself.

I usually use all guns, except maybe a real small thing. But even if its a real small trim job air nails look a lot nicer cause of the small hole they leave and no risk of hammer damage.
I did a setup with a 2.5 LB tank. (40 OZ) And used my hitachi to shoot over 200 nails before the tank went empty. So assume a 20 OZ could do about 100 nails.

Its not for framing a basement, its for casing a door, fixing a couple studs the damn plumer, hvac or electrician screwed up. Getting that last piece of hardware on the deck that requires the palm nailer... that you left at home the day the compressor was on the job.
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Old 03-14-2008, 12:56 AM   #24
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


My hammer is for gently persuading my lumber to move to a precise position before I BLAST IT WITH MY NAIL GUN.

And for demolition, too. I was told, as a young helper back in the day, that if my boss didn't hear the nail guns goin', he wasn't makin' money.

Guns are for going forward....hammers are for going backwards. And what a dope I am. I own a Stiletto Ti-15. (Awesome hammer - but I have shot at least 10000 to 1 nails with my Hitachi.)

IMO those framers (from Clarksville, TN) who boldly state that its not a "good" house unless you hand bang it together with 20d sinkers are the ego types who want to sound "all that".

Shoot the guns

Get it done

Make your pay

And go away.
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Old 03-14-2008, 01:09 AM   #25
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by wallmaxx View Post
Shoot the guns

Get it done

Make your pay

And go away.
You forgot one...

..."Save your arm."
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:01 PM   #26
 
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by TempestV View Post
However, if you are putting in more than a few nails, you are shooting your self in the foot to hand pound them.
That's an odd metaphor, since it's only by using a nail gun that you're at all likely to "shoot yourself in the foot".

Being the Luddite that I am, I put off using nail guns as long as I could. When my son, who was my helper one summer, quit before the job was done and I had a bunch of 2x12-16s to sister onto existing ceiling joists over my head, I broke down and bought an Impulse cordless nailer (and later the Impulse cordless finish nailer), as I still didn't want to hear the sound of a compressor on my jobsite.

The first pneumatic nailgun I purchased was a pin nailer for a high-end renovation job. But when I began suffering from too much tendonitis, I finally got myself a couple compressors and a whole set of pneumatic nailers. I almost never use them on bump fire, though, as safety is far more important to me than speed.

In fact, a major reason I avoided using them for so long is that I have no interest in turning a worksite into a production factory. I charge a little less per hour and take the time to do a job with a high degree of craft.

Nail guns, regardless of who's using them, have a tendency to encourage:
  • * sloppy work
  • * excessive nailing
  • * missed nails
  • * accidents

Additionally, since I often frame with full-dimension rough green lumber, I have to use galvanized 20d nails for wall framing and these require hand nailing. I still like the sound of rhythmic hammering, and nailing into green lumber is a piece of cake.
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:02 PM   #27
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
Additionally, since I often frame with full-dimension rough green lumber, I have to use galvanized 20d nails for wall framing and these require hand nailing. I still like the sound of rhythmic hammering, and nailing into green lumber is a piece of cake.
Not quite true, there are a couple nail guns out there that shoot a 4" nail.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:42 PM   #28
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
Nail guns, regardless of who's using them, have a tendency to encourage:
  • * sloppy work
  • * excessive nailing
  • * missed nails
  • * accidents
I disagree 100% If you can't use the tool...don't.

I don't mean to directly throw an insult your way...but... that is just a silly statement. As technology advances, if it helps to work smarter, better and faster...embrace it. Don't fear it.

Almost like electricity tends to cause saws to:
  • * cut too fast
  • * excessive scrap/waste
  • * accidents
So lets use hand tools only.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:13 PM   #29
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by TempestV View Post
Not quite true, there are a couple nail guns out there that shoot a 4" nail.
True Tempest...this baby (BigBerta) nails up to 6 1/2" nails and is specifically engineered for those heavy timber applications:

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Old 03-14-2008, 10:16 PM   #30
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by wallmaxx View Post
[/LIST]I disagree 100% If you can't use the tool...don't.

I don't mean to directly throw an insult your way...but... that is just a silly statement. As technology advances, if it helps to work smarter, better and faster...embrace it. Don't fear it.

Almost like electricity tends to cause saws to:
  • * cut too fast
  • * excessive scrap/waste
  • * accidents
So lets use hand tools only.

Just my 2 cents
Yup!

That's like saying that if wheels were never invented, there'd be no car crashes.

Wonder...is he using an actual hammer or a rock tied to a stick with a string made of goat intestine?

Poor workmanship leads to those things...not the tool.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:17 PM   #31
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
I still like the sound of rhythmic hammering...
I will however co-sign to that statement!
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:46 PM   #32
 
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by wallmaxx View Post
I disagree 100% If you can't use the tool...don't.

Almost like electricity tends to cause saws to:
  • * cut too fast
  • * excessive scrap/waste
  • * accidents
So lets use hand tools only.
Then I suspect you're being less than honest.

As I said, I DO use the tools and use them as carefully as I can, but even I find myself on occassion mis-shooting a nail and saying "Aw I don't want to go get my catspaw and hammer, I'll just leave it there." And I've come too darn close to shooting a nail into the hand holding the stud.

I've never seen a worksite using nail guns in which those three problems weren't evident.

And, yes, the analogy holds true with power saws. It's just that they've been around longer and we're more used to them (as well as to their foibles).
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:50 PM   #33
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
It's just that they've been around longer and we're more used to them (as well as to their foibles).
I think that sums ALL of the argument.

1) Familiarity
2) Skill
3) Fear of technology
4) Ability to learn and grow



Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversong View Post

I've never seen a worksite using nail guns in which those three problems weren't evident.
Just a point of contention and inquisition........



How the HELL does one "cut too fast"?
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:59 PM   #34
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
Then I suspect you're being less than honest.

As I said, I DO use the tools and use them as carefully as I can, but even I find myself on occassion mis-shooting a nail and saying "Aw I don't want to go get my catspaw and hammer, I'll just leave it there." And I've come too darn close to shooting a nail into the hand holding the stud.

I've never seen a worksite using nail guns in which those three problems weren't evident.

And, yes, the analogy holds true with power saws. It's just that they've been around longer and we're more used to them (as well as to their foibles).
Wow. Now I'm dishonest.

I actually carry a cat's paw in my bags at all times. And vise grips, and air blower chuck, nail set, chisel. 40 lbs with a full load of 16D shorts.

I have NEVER come close to shooting my hand. Infact, and I hate to jinx myself, but I have never been shot or cut. (I did have a shed roof porch collapse on me when I was a helper in 1990) My only REAL injury is over time. My right side hearing is a bit damaged. Saws, guns and weapons.

I never hold the material where I'm going to be shooting.

I have seen a couple of guys get "nailed" when nailing plates to studs by shooting the top nail first. The nail hits a knot, curls up and BLAM, catches their finger that is flushing the stud with the plate. I shoot from the bottom up to avoid that.

Just because I use a gun doesn't mean I go flat out balls to the wall (whatever that means) and fire nails out of some crack driven frenzy just to sound busy.

Since I became the boss:

1. I use a SCMS, table saw, router, and every cool air tool I can find.
2. I go at my speed.
3. Things are done to my standards.

As far as pneumatic nailing, I selectively choose the placement and FIRE. One trigger squeeze verses 3 to 5 whacks - no brainer.


Funny Thing. Since I don't swing my hammer too often to drive nails, I NEVER hit my thumb.

ok...well not actually never.


I'm happy that you have your way of doing things.

Mike
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:35 AM   #35
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Wow. Now I'm dishonest.

I actually carry a cat's paw in my bags at all times. And vise grips, and air blower chuck, nail set, chisel. 40 lbs with a full load of 16D shorts.

I have NEVER come close to shooting my hand. Infact, and I hate to jinx myself, but I have never been shot or cut. (I did have a shed roof porch collapse on me when I was a helper in 1990) My only REAL injury is over time. My right side hearing is a bit damaged. Saws, guns and weapons.

I never hold the material where I'm going to be shooting.

I have seen a couple of guys get "nailed" when nailing plates to studs by shooting the top nail first. The nail hits a knot, curls up and BLAM, catches their finger that is flushing the stud with the plate. I shoot from the bottom up to avoid that.

Just because I use a gun doesn't mean I go flat out balls to the wall (whatever that means) and fire nails out of some crack driven frenzy just to sound busy.

Since I became the boss:

1. I use a SCMS, table saw, router, and every cool air tool I can find.
2. I go at my speed.
3. Things are done to my standards.

As far as pneumatic nailing, I selectively choose the placement and FIRE. One trigger squeeze verses 3 to 5 whacks - no brainer.


Funny Thing. Since I don't swing my hammer too often to drive nails, I NEVER hit my thumb.

ok...well not actually never.


I'm happy that you have your way of doing things.

Mike
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:30 AM   #36
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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I charge a little less per hour and take the time to do a job with a high degree of craft.
You can do the same thing using a nailgun and don't have to charge less.
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Old 03-15-2008, 08:10 AM   #37
 
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


I totally get the part about missing with sheething nailing or sometimes not missing but the nail deflects sideways through the stud joist or rafters,this doesnt make anyone an idiot.It means they need more time to gain more experience.My guns will not go all the way through 1/2" cdx so there is no hole left behind.You just hear the sound change but first you need to know what its supposed to sound like.After 20+ years, i rarely miss,my guy with 8years usually doesnt miss,my guy with 5 years sometimes misses, and my newest guy will once in a while hit the beam.I always walk around at the end of framing and back out misses and make sure everything is nailed properly before the roof goes on and braces come down.The man is not an idiot for doing it his own way ,apparently he is doing something right ,he has been in buisiness for over 40 years and still frames with his guys.Thats longer than I have been alive.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:50 PM   #38
 
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York View Post
I think that sums ALL of the argument.

1) Familiarity
2) Skill
3) Fear of technology
4) Ability to learn and grow
Naw, you left out a few:

* speed vs craftmanship
* noise level of worksite
* tangled web of cords and hoses vs clear work area
* wholesome respect for dangers (not fear of technology)
* retaining the best of the old ways along with adopting appropriate new ones
* ability to learn and improve (growth does not equal improvement)
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:55 PM   #39
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


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Originally Posted by Riversong View Post
Naw, you left out a few:

* speed vs craftmanship
* noise level of worksite
* tangled web of cords and hoses vs clear work area
* wholesome respect for dangers (not fear of technology)
* retaining the best of the old ways along with adopting appropriate new ones
* ability to learn and improve (growth does not equal improvement)

Never Mind!
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Old 03-16-2008, 11:57 AM   #40
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Re: Poll:Hand Nail Or Gun


This thread is soooo 70's!
There is a learning curve to ANY TOOL...hand tool, or power tool.

Think about it. Don't most carps hit their finger's now & then when first learning to use a hammer? The same applies to power tools, but the danger factor is increased. The learning curve applies to every aspect of using air tools...the compressors, hoses, regulators, couplers, & overall maintanance. Having all new stuff is fairly simple, but that only lasts so long, & that's where the complications set in. Maintainence, tool knowledge, & safety practice is the key to efficient use of air tools.

As far as sloppy shooting, I always threatened to charge my guys for wasted nails. They usually don't understand the cost per shot. Ask them if they have a quarter you can borrow, & then see how far you can throw it! Call them out, put a number on it. Once guy understand that they are shooting money into the lumber, they are usually more careful. Refer to careless sloppy shooting as "shotgunning"...it gets the point across.

Even Norm Abrams eventually saw the ways of the nail gun!
It's a no brainer.
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