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Just Curious...

 
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Old 05-18-2015, 09:34 PM   #21
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Re: Just Curious...


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I thought you only did decks??!! You didn't tell me you were for hire. Now I'm offended!
I can't frame worth a damn anymore. Serious back injuries just won't let me do it. He's a family friend and got himself in a real bind so I helped out, then turned into he knew how to do everything (wrong but at least he was confident).

I try to stay low key for the same few clients anymore who always want something done out of ipe and usually consists of staying on the ground and in the shop.

You ever really need a hand, I can try to make something work. Just can't leave my primadonna's for over a week or so.
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Old 05-18-2015, 09:45 PM   #22
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Re: Just Curious...


http://empirelevel.com/squares/17453.pdf

Here you go! Maybe this will help your teaching lessons...
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:11 PM   #23
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Re: Just Curious...


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I don't think most modern day Carpenters have a framing square, much less know how to use it.

A guys skill level used to be determined relevant to his knowledge of the use of a framing square....
Knowledge of the framing square should be passed down from employer to employee imo. Most employers don't see the benefit and now no one knows how to use one. Question though, is there a way to lay out hips for an irregular pitch roof with a framing square? I don't know of one but would sure like to learn. We always use the cm.
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Old 05-18-2015, 11:31 PM   #24
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Re: Just Curious...


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Knowledge of the framing square should be passed down from employer to employee imo. Most employers don't see the benefit and now no one knows how to use one. Question though, is there a way to lay out hips for an irregular pitch roof with a framing square? I don't know of one but would sure like to learn. We always use the cm.

On bastards I usually just set the ridge and commons and field measure the hips.
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:35 AM   #25
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Re: Just Curious...


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On bastards I usually just set the ridge and commons and field measure the hips.
So there is no other way than either "winging it", or with the cm?
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Old 05-19-2015, 05:58 AM   #26
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Re: Just Curious...


Don't see how knowing how to stick frame a roof is going to help you assemble hip trusses. Once you assemble the end jacks onto the girder, the next trusses need to stay on plane to them. I have seldom ever found trusses that work exactly on centre. That's why is suggested a straight edge, set the truss and measure the blocking. You can calculate what the size should be, but lots of times it wont be right. How about ridge extensions that are overframed onto another roof. They never work on centre.
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Old 05-19-2015, 06:14 AM   #27
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Re: Just Curious...


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Don't see how knowing how to stick frame a roof is going to help you assemble hip trusses. Once you assemble the end jacks onto the girder, the next trusses need to stay on plane to them. I have seldom ever found trusses that work exactly on centre. That's why is suggested a straight edge, set the truss and measure the blocking. You can calculate what the size should be, but lots of times it wont be right. How about ridge extensions that are overframed onto another roof. They never work on centre.


Exactly my point. The problem is that the components (EJ's, HJ's, & CJ's) are not assembled properly at the plant. If you aren't able to identify these errors in fabrication then, you're right, a straight edge is your only hope.

Now if all the roofs I framed were tract homes and they all got aluminum soffit, no big deal right? If a truss layout had to shift past 24" o.c. You could scab it right?

Unfortunately I'm a very particular creature and that's not good enough for me. Also, we have a lot of Dutch West Indies style of homes being constructed here due to our close proximity to the Carribean. These houses feature exposed tails that need to be on precise layout. The tails later get covered with a chunkier scrolled cedar tail cover that has been mortised out to slide over the truss tail. (See pic below.) So planing with a straight edge doesn't solve a layout issue which is critical. Also at inside corners, a false valley tail needs to be added. There's no such thing as a valley truss tail, so in order to achieve that you must have an understanding of cutting rafters properly.

Just curious...-imageuploadedbycontractortalk1432033948.264999.jpg

In the photo the eave pitch is a 3:12 while everything inside of the bearing points is 7:12. The soffit is open with a tall frieze band for bird blocking.

This particular roof was started by another crew. We were then called in to to the rave portion as the crew who set the trusses weren't able to perform the scope for some reason.
The tails were all over the place. They planed at the bearing point and then had a 3" variance in elevation at the ends of the tails. It was obvious that layout and using a straight edge was attempted and then just outright abandoned for "just get some plywood on it." We spent more time
Modifying the tails and submitting change orders to take things apart that was unnecessary. Sorry for the rant, but this is just one example of why the straight edge method is the least desirable in my opinion.

Last edited by JesseCocozza; 05-19-2015 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 05-19-2015, 06:27 AM   #28
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Just curious...-imageuploadedbycontractortalk1432034764.856704.jpg

I found a pic of what we were left with, and these are just the eave jacks, the simplest to correct. This is just one small section, but notice the variation in elevation at the tails.
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Old 05-19-2015, 01:37 PM   #29
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Re: Just Curious...


That just looks like every set of trusses I get.
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Old 05-19-2015, 02:06 PM   #30
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So do you install them like that or do you check all the dimensions on them and make modifications before you install? These were installed as is by someone else.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:43 PM   #31
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Re: Just Curious...


If you have to be that precise with the placement of the trusses, you don't have much choice but to set your girders and make all the trusses parallel to them. I would still then run a straight edge up the jacks to see if they are on the correct plane. I too am very fussy. I expect my roof and walls to be straight and on plane. It only takes a second to check anything with a straight edge and find something that is incorrect. That is why I suggested the straight edge. Most of the carpenters that work for me have construction masters and can calculate rafters. Only a few could step them off on a square. We build almost all hand cut roofs with steel ridges so they get lots of practice.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:03 PM   #32
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Re: Just Curious...


I know frame all kind of roofs with stick and trusses. Cathedral ceiling with stick and trusses to. How much I can charge just to set hips or whatsoever need. Not good you do not pay nothing. It is serious question.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:14 PM   #33
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Re: Just Curious...


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Don't see how knowing how to stick frame a roof is going to help you assemble hip trusses. Once you assemble the end jacks onto the girder, the next trusses need to stay on plane to them. I have seldom ever found trusses that work exactly on centre. That's why is suggested a straight edge, set the truss and measure the blocking. You can calculate what the size should be, but lots of times it wont be right. How about ridge extensions that are overframed onto another roof. They never work on centre.
Should I do video abut framing hip roofs with roof trusses. Roof trusses hips are not framed to the center of roof trusses. You have to understand geometry well to understand that. I always scratch my head why guys shave hips always with sawzall.
Anyway if you here guys think that hip line go through middle or ruff trusses (that stepped ones that make hips) you are wrong. Same for walleyes with roof trusses and cathedral ceiling (yours wrong would be most visible in cathedral ceiling hips)
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:19 PM   #34
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Re: Just Curious...


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Should I do video abut framing hip roofs with roof trusses. Roof trusses hips are not framed to the center of roof trusses. You have to understand geometry well to understand that. I always scratch my head why guys shave hips always with sawzall.
Anyway if you here guys think that hip line go through middle or ruff trusses (that stepped ones that make hips) you are wrong. Same for walleyes with roof trusses and cathedral ceiling (yours wrong would be most visible in cathedral ceiling hips)
Yes please!!

And hurry up with that crown video.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:20 PM   #35
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Re: Just Curious...


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Exactly my point. The problem is that the components (EJ's, HJ's, & CJ's) are not assembled properly at the plant. If you aren't able to identify these errors in fabrication then, you're right, a straight edge is your only hope.
No they are installed properly at plant. Guys do not know use it. I swear here with my life we didn’t cut no one hip, walley, cathedral ceiling of that big roof in picture. And hips are irregular. Basically trusses can not be assembled wrong at plant as I can move top of it left or right to form hip.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:26 PM   #36
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Re: Just Curious...


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Yes please!!

And hurry up with that crown video.
I swear with my life again I know build every hip perfect with trusses. I understand geometry involved there. Btw when I worked for a high end company coowner/superviser did understand how to frame hip with trusses too. I just want to say many carpenter know to do it they just do not want to explain to others. Again if you think that hip line go through middle of truss you are wrong.
This is pathetic place where one guy who is expert in something (I do not say I’m expert in everything) get laugh at by people who do not understand problem best.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:30 PM   #37
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Re: Just Curious...


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Question though, is there a way to lay out hips for an irregular pitch roof with a framing square? I don't know of one but would sure like to learn. We always use the cm.

The Chappell framing square has tables for irregular roofs.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:31 PM   #38
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Re: Just Curious...


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I swear with my life again I know build every hip perfect with trusses. I understand geometry involved there. Btw when I worked for a high end company coowner/superviser did understand how to frame hip with trusses too. I just want to say many carpenter know to do it they just do not want to explain to others. Again if you think that hip line go through middle of truss you are wrong.
This is pathetic place where one guy who is expert in something (I do not say I’m expert in everything) get laugh at by people who do not understand problem best.
I have worked with roof trusses for 30 years. If you say every truss is perfect, then I am laughing at you. I happen to be a fan of a great truss system. We can do things with trusses that were not possible before. I have been fortunate to work with some great engineers and designers from a local truss company. For the most part, they do nice work, but every now and then there are issues. I do not profess to be an expert in anything.
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:32 PM   #39
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Re: Just Curious...


This will end like that other tread about “crown 50 degree” where anyone say can not be coped and I say it can be coped and anyone call me moron.
Hip roofs can be perfectly done with roof trusses. Period. Tread/
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:37 PM   #40
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Re: Just Curious...


All of my framing squares have had the 17" hash on the blade remarked so I dont forget.

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