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Old 09-01-2009, 08:46 PM   #61
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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Old 09-01-2009, 08:46 PM   #62
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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That other snafu would be having all your tools hot-melted into your nail bags with the guys i work with.
i hear ya. the one guy in the photos looks like he can hump trusses up by himself, set them sheathe them and go home. i keep my mouth shut around big sasquatch dudes like that. unless i have a roof shovel handy.
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:52 PM   #63
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Re: Hips And Valleys


Loneframer - I hate that you have those nice bump jack setups and I don't!

We just hang off our safety lines, or make tri-angle scaffold out of 2x4s.

Oh, and nice job there
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:54 PM   #64
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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i hear ya. the one guy in the photos looks like he can hump trusses up by himself, set them sheathe them and go home. i keep my mouth shut around big sasquatch dudes like that. unless i have a roof shovel handy.
Yup, he had lots of time in the big-house to get that way too. I had to fire his big ass. I was so pissed off, I thought I could take him that day.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:00 PM   #65
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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Yup, he had lots of time in the big-house to get that way too. I had to fire his big ass. I was so pissed off, I thought I could take him that day.
the big ones have a mind of their own it seems. i hire smaller than me now but still stay away from the four-footers -- don't speak their language
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:00 PM   #66
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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Loneframer - I hate that you have those nice bump jack setups and I don't!

We just hang off our safety lines, or make tri-angle scaffold out of 2x4s.

Oh, and nice job there
Thanks, I acqiured those poles while building for a guy in ocean city, who needed me to side a house in cedar for him. He put them on his account and let me work them off by papering in the next 6 or 7 buildings for him. Seems his siders didn't impress him with the prep work.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:06 PM   #67
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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the big ones have a mind of their own it seems. i hire smaller than me now but still stay away from the four-footers -- don't speak their language
He was a good dude, but he couldn't get along with the guy who did 13 years in Trenton State who was 6'4" and looked like the third guy from the left on the evolution chart. Had to let him go too.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:07 PM   #68
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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He was a good dude, but he couldn't get along with the guy who did 13 years in trenton State who was 6'4" and looked like the third guy from the left on the evolution chart. Had to let him go too.
seems like you have the cream of the crop there. should try out for work with that NC contractor
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:10 PM   #69
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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He was a good dude, but he couldn't get along with the guy who did 13 years in Trenton State who was 6'4" and looked like the third guy from the left on the evolution chart. Had to let him go too.
can't say that i got a lot more work done out of bigger dudes, but i did get compliments on the size of the crew 2 people look like 4
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:14 PM   #70
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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seems like you have the cream of the crop there. should try out for work with that NC contractor
That's why I'm the Loneframer. Now I sub myself out to guys who are tired of that sh!t too. I have a small group of framers and GCs that I bounce back and forth to. Sometimes I get contracted to do nothing but layout and cut, while the lead carpenter babysits.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:17 PM   #71
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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That's why I'm the Loneframer. Now I sub myself out to guys who are tired of that sh!t too. I have a small group of framers and GCs that I bounce back and forth to. Sometimes I get contracted to do nothing but layout and cut, while the lead carpenter babysits.
you could say I'm doing the same. Down to 2 guys plus me. I piece out anything that I can't get to, which right now isn't a hole lot.
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:21 PM   #72
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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let's not start that crap again. or the fag moderator will close this thread too.
See you in a month.

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Old 09-01-2009, 09:50 PM   #73
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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No, because it is different for every pitch and what size hip (width)you are using.



No, that's not correct. It might work for a 12/12 pitch using a 2x hip. It's slight different for each pitch lets say starting at 4/12 - 12/12.



Yes, valleys HAP cut is the same as the Common HAP cut. You mark the length to the outside corner and then make the same HAP cut as the common rafter without coming in 1/2 the thickness of the hip.

The fastest and easiest way to mark the hip HAP cut without any math is to just mark the length to the outside corner and make a plumbcut mark and move the mark in towards the top 1/2 the thickness of the hip and mark another plumbcut. Come down from the top the same 6-1/4" common rafter HAP. Scribe your seatcut measurement out to the outside corner plumbcut mark (which is the outside corner) and cut to that mark.

You have to drop the hip or adjust the HAP mark because the hip outside corner length measurement running at 45° twists the side of the hipoff the corner. That creates a small triangle ayt the plateline with a run and rise. At the plateline is where the outsides of the hip has to have the same HAP cut as the common rafter HAP cut. Coming in 1/2 the thickness of the hip and marking the HAP cut the same as the common HAP cut planes the outside of the hip in perfect wity the common HAP.

this is the way I do it..
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:22 AM   #74
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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Originally Posted by FRAMERBEN View Post
So lets talk about how to figure the drop of a bastard hip. Thanks for any info in advance.

Ben
Ben,


This is a different concept for H/V rafter cutting than most roof cutters employ. For Irregulars, it is the least complicated and most precise. See more on this topic discussed over at JLC’s rough framing forum.

(see link in next post, No. 16 for me)


I pre cut all H/V rafters, regulars and irregulars, the same as I simply calc and mark commons. HAPs are always equal.

Both types of rafters, (Commons. & H/V’s), have similarities that once recognized, can be very useful in simplifying understanding how they fit geometrically. Both rafter types are contained in the same plane, and they extend from the same plate to the same ridge. So their lengths are based on the same effective run, the common’s. (As used by the better framing square’s H/V rafter length tables and also most reference books and the CM Master calculators too.) Both rafter types have pitch cuts and cheek cuts that are parallel. These cuts are known as compound miters, and are easier to recognize on the H/V rafters than the commons.

The common’s compound miter is ‘pitch’ by 90 degs. (90 degs is the commons plan view angle) The H/V rafters have an ‘adjusted pitch’ by proportionate plan angle(s). (The regular pitch H/V roof will have a 1/1 proportionate plan angle, Irregulars will have proportionate angles defined by the tangent and cotangent of the given pitches. (or Major pitch/Minor pitch, and the reciprocal) On irregular pitches you should be able to use either pitch’s effective run and solve the Irreg. H/V’s length, and it will always calculate to be equal either way.

Understanding the perpendicularly located relationship of the long points and the short points of the compound miters is the key to simplifying marking and cutting H/V rafters, both regular and irregular. Hips are measured and marked from top to bottom, along the top shoulder, and valleys are done reciprocally, bottom to top, along the bottom. The H/V rafter line lengths are the same length at their sides as the line length at the H/V’s apparent center prior to performing the cuts.

All this means is that the H/V rafters can be marked and cut like the commons with the exception that the cheeks are not (90) square bevels. These compound angle points do mirror each other straight across the top of the boards and where these opposing angles cross is the apparent offset, or shift.

This method does not require any additional ‘Hip Drop’ or shift adjustments. The geometry is self aligning and they usually fit perfect. Valleys cut this way are brought into plane at the top shoulder to valley jacks top, (not planning to the center as they are when marked as most guys mark them). I like to drop the valleys slightly so that I skip ‘V’ backing them but they are still high enough to easily support the sheathing cuts, and they are more forgiving of less perfect valley sheathing cuts too.
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:25 AM   #75
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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(see link in next post, No. 16 for me)


.
Roof Cutter's Basics

http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43256
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:24 PM   #76
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Re: Hips And Valleys


Thanks Birch.

I think that it is sad that i had to spend time sifting through all of this crap to find two useful posts that actually had a response to the question that i asked.
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:44 PM   #77
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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Thanks Birch.

I think that it is sad that i had to spend time sifting through all of this crap to find two useful posts that actually had a response to the question that i asked.
Ben,

I did respond but I did not answer your inquiry about how to “figure the (Hip) drop for a bastard hip.” I only reiterated in post No. 80 what I previously posted in No. 37. My approach to the solution for this common Roof Framing task is as simple as it can get. It is “easier done” than said (explained) and I believe that the geometric simplicity that is present in every hip/valley roof has been simply overlooked, or missed, in recent times. (As evidenced by the fact I can’t find a modern reference book on the subject that addresses this geometric view) I am simply trying to point out the geometry.


Every book I’ve found on the subject over thinks the task and complicates the solutions. The geometry is set in stone and is true for every scenario of roof I have encountered. Hopefully you can view the Sketchup Demo I produced and you “see” what I’m talking about. I swear, once this concept ‘snaps’, all roofs are simple.

(Draw yourself a full scale framing detail plan view of a one foot run hip roof, and study it.)

Here is a isometric drawing I did. Notice the equal line lengths (congruent triangles) assosiated with the hip.

Last edited by Birch; 10-27-2013 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:23 PM   #78
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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So lets talk about how to figure the drop of a bastard hip. Thanks for any info in advance.

Ben
man I wish I could put easily into words what I do.. for starters on a bastard always think from the subfacia as a start. The corner of the sub is where it starts and the corner of the plates is simply a point of reference and not anything to do with the hip. Start with the HAP for the shallower pitch at wherever you need it for boxing heights to work.. lets just say for kicks it is one plate on top of joists with a standard hap depth.. If you draw a full scale mockup of the standard cornice and then draw the steep side pitch also starting from the same point (from the boxing) you will see that the hap on the steep side is a good bit (depending on pitch) higher than the shallow one ..I usually end up with an extra plate on the steep side so I dont have such a small birdsmouth cut. Whatever plates I add to the steep side I let extend all the way for the hip to sit on as well.Then if you draw a level line on the mockup from the hap of the steep side to where it intersects with the slope of the shallow side and measure that level line that will give you the distance that the hip is off of the corner pulling from shallow side plate along steep side plate. The hip should be cut using the hap of the steepside. Keep in mind that the hap of the hip is figured at the corners of it and not the center. I could show you with a framing square and a piece of plywood a lot quicker and easier than I can put it into words! All of this can be figured with a calculator but I find it easier to grasp and explain by drawing it... Then I have a cool picture to try to keep up with too! Hope some of this makes sense!
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:00 AM   #79
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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Then if you draw a level line on the mockup from the hap of the steep side to where it intersects with the slope of the shallow side and measure that level line that will give you the distance that the hip is off of the corner pulling from shallow side plate along steep side plate. The hip should be cut using the hap of the steepside. Keep in mind that the hap of the hip is figured at the corners of it and not the center. I could show you with a framing square and a piece of plywood a lot quicker and easier than I can put it into words! !
A easy way to show where the hip offset is towards the steep side and center of the hip and where the outside of the hip to mark the HAP cut off the outside corner is on the corner of a sheet of plywood. Takes a couple minutes to do this.

Using an 8/12 and 10/12 combination with 12" equal overhangs.

Draw off the left side corners of the plywood for example 12" and then 3-1/2" for the top plate thickness. Now you have your overhang including sub-fascia and top plates with the outside corner.

Now draw 8" in from left to right and 10" up from corner and draw the 8x10 rectangle which represents the two pitches in plan view. Also gives plan view angles and cheek cuts for hip and jack cheek cuts.

Connect from the bottom left corner to the top of the 8x10 rectangle hypotenuse line and continue that line until it hits the outside top plate line. That's your center line of the hip offset from the outside corner towards the steep side which is 3".

Now draw a 3/4" perpendicular line on both sides of the hip hypotenuse line and draw both sides of that line from the sub-fascia overhang to the outside of the plateline. That's where your HAP mark is.

First drawing is the plan view where the center of the hip sits 3" off the corner. Second drawing shows the thickness of a 2x hip where that hits the outside of the top plate where to mark the HAP cut.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:29 AM   #80
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Re: Hips And Valleys


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A easy way to show where the hip offset is towards the steep side and center of the hip and where the outside of the hip to mark the HAP cut off the outside corner is on the corner of a sheet of plywood. Takes a couple minutes to do this.

Using an 8/12 and 10/12 combination with 12" equal overhangs.

Draw off the left side corners of the plywood for example 12" and then 3-1/2" for the top plate thickness. Now you have your overhang including sub-fascia and top plates with the outside corner.

Now draw 8" in from left to right and 10" up from corner and draw the 8x10 rectangle which represents the two pitches in plan view. Also gives plan view angles and cheek cuts for hip and jack cheek cuts.

Connect from the bottom left corner to the top of the 8x10 rectangle hypotenuse line and continue that line until it hits the outside top plate line. That's your center line of the hip offset from the outside corner towards the steep side which is 3".

Now draw a 3/4" perpendicular line on both sides of the hip hypotenuse line and draw both sides of that line from the sub-fascia overhang to the outside of the plateline. That's where your HAP mark is.

First drawing is the plan view where the center of the hip sits 3" off the corner. Second drawing shows the thickness of a 2x hip where that hits the outside of the top plate where to mark the HAP cut.

cool! I usually draw this view too but achieve the same results using a different method.. The "8x10" rectangle is a shortcut I'll be trying in the future! There are still alot of nuances to a bastard hip that even with all the info given in these posts someone with no experience with them will still struggle! Nobody has even addressed the top cut and plenty of people will assume it is just a standard double cheeked cut I love it when I ride through a neighborhood and see bastard hip houses with a little offset in boxing height at the corners!

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