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Fun With Wood X-bridging

 
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:20 PM   #301
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Me, no.
Others?
Certainly.
how? telling people who aren't framers they aren't framers? that's not an insult. telling people they're dense because they don't understand what they're reading and are getting angry with me? not much of an insult either.

i think your aggression is misplaced. i don't see you get mad at people who call me a hack.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:22 PM   #302
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


I think it's time for a group hug.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:23 PM   #303
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


Everything worth saying, has been.

We can all agree that we all try to build a good, safe structure. No short cuts - no shaving the codes - infact, some people take it the other way..."bomb-proof" and that's okay by me.

I know that I have things to learn from most of the men on this site. I only know what I need to know to do what I have had to do - so for example, the eyebrow dormer...I haven't a clue.

Y'all keep knockin' out good work for our customers and have a great week.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:26 PM   #304
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


who started this thread anyway?
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:30 PM   #305
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Originally Posted by naptown CR View Post
Clem
You are entitled to your opinion and obviously no one here is going to change that.
I don't think any one here said that is a bad thing to block your walls.
Well maybe the electrician who has to come behind you to snake a wire might say something.
The point we are trying to make without attacking anyone is that in most jurisdictions the blocking is unnecessary to satisfy code. Codes are written for a purpose and they vary all over the country. Our personal feelings are that bolcking mid point in an exterior wall is unnecessary as the sheathing when properly nailed and the drywall applied to the inside has proven to be adequate over the course of time to negate the need. and prevent the studs from bowing in the smaller dimension.

As far as interior walls are concerned if they bow they were built with too small a framing member in the first place. If loaded as you say with a 20000 pound load there should be steel or an adequate support provided.In this scenario if the load were uniform ALL of the studs would bow With blocking they would all bow in the same direction but all would bow.
All walls should be designed to carry the intended loads not an arbitrary load implied to cause the structure to fail. If you put enough weight on anything it will fail. The codes take care of this nicely by building in as engineers do a safety factor.

Your argument that it will keep a stud from crowning further Maybe it would help although I doubt the mid height would prevent much of that as once it starts bowing it will tend to pull the nails on the side of the block it is bowing toward and there is very little strength in nails when in tension. Screws would be a whole different story but way too labor intensive for the benefit.

You are a framer and you frame
Others of us here do other things also. The building is not just about the framing there are many other parts to go in and other contributing factors to your framing and the building as a whole. You need to give these elements credit too.

My big argument was not about if you block or not. I don't really care one way or the other. It apparently is a local requirement and is what you learned. We may have learned differently.You have been stubborn in insisting that be installed. The codes in other areas have not required it.
Codes are based on evaluating the performance of building structures over many years and much research in the science of building. They are not based on a requirement of only one jurisdiction but on a larger view of the building science. Local codes are in place to satisfy local issues In your case the blocking is an offshoot of the days when people were sheathing with homosote, little or no insulation, and fire was a more common occurance. Hence fireblocking to prevent the fire from climbing within a wall.
My contention is that there is no research and engineering that has been done To support your position other than your feelings about the matter. There has in ours. Block every bay if you must or feel that it is necessary.
YOu learned the way you do things and are pretty rigid on how they are done. You critisized me and others for not being able to bend with your way of thinking and doing things the way we do them simply because we have done them for 30 years and that is what we were taught. You as i and others have pointed out have been doing exactly the same thing. This is the way you learned it and you believe it is the only way Your way of doing things may be entirely correct. Or not. Just show us some validated proof of your position by someone other than yourself and your opinions about a subject.
Thank you Rant over
a blocked wall is not sitting out in the middle of a field. all studs do no bow in the same direction because there's a positive stop on either side. whether it's the outside corner or an opening or a post. studs do not crown, because in order for a stud to crow it has to pull nails out and displace the block thus increasing the overall run of the combined sum of blocks. which positive stops at either side, this is very hard to do, even for drying wood. blocking walls helps, whether you like it or not. i've seen both blocked and unblocked partitions, i like the blocked version for reasons mentioned above. you and everyone who shares your point of view offers the same argument - no data to confirm to validity. the validity has been confirmed to me through visual observation.

edit: to be a good framer you need to be a good trimmer. know basic plumbing, concrete, electrical, hvac, roofing, siding. then your frames are perfect in all respects. but you still need to frame :

Last edited by ClemS; 11-15-2009 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:30 PM   #306
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Originally Posted by ClemS View Post
and did i
attack you
or anyone
personally?
I would be one
Reread your posts
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:31 PM   #307
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


All I know is someone should build an 8 foot wall both blocked and unblocked and measure stud bow with increasing loads until they both collapse.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:33 PM   #308
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
All I know is someone should build an 8 foot wall both blocked and unblocked and measure stud bow with increasing loads until they both collapse.
i could do it with a hydraulic jack. only problem would be keeping the stud from springing out and damaging my uber-brain.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:34 PM   #309
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


Quote:
Originally Posted by naptown CR View Post
I would be one
Reread your posts
before or after you called me a corrupt politician and a hack? read yours
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:38 PM   #310
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemS View Post
the point of view offers the same argument - no data to confirm to validity.
Our validity comes from the codes and jurisdictions and research that has occurred to come to the decision that this is a waste serves no appreciable purpose and is no longer required.

the validity has been confirmed to me through visual observation.
I rest my case you have no research other than your own personal observations.

Last edited by naptown CR; 11-15-2009 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:38 PM   #311
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Originally Posted by tomstruble View Post
who started this thread anyway?
Don't blame me, I started this thread with the intent of catastrophic failure.
Good night gentlemen, thanks for the interest, the passion and the ensuing entertainment. Much respect to all.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:39 PM   #312
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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I rest my case
which was? that there are 5 boroughs in NY?
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:39 PM   #313
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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before or after you called me a corrupt politician and a hack? read yours
long before
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:44 PM   #314
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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are you then saying that a wall blocked mid-height is no better than a wall with loose studs? because that's what I think you're saying. so you're negating the fact that a wood member positively reinforced mid-height along it's weak side is stronger than a wood member with no such reinforcement?
Sigh... no, that is not what I am saying, do you see me saying that anywhere?

Please explain where the ten tons (20000 lbs) that you mentioned are coming from, you keep ignoring that while making up things I did say.

I believe I expressly stated that if that load were to appear on a stud it would help if that stud had lateral bracing, did you read that part? Then I asked where that type of load would come from. You didn't answer, you just implied that I have not worked in years. OK.

The fact that I have been working longer than you have been alive does not mean I build better than you but it does mean something like I know kinda how these systems work and blocking between studs does next to nothing structurally for a building (as all those people you dismiss agree with: engineers and architects, who have scientific evidence for this that can be reproduced at will). If you do it for any other reason than you are told to by someone with more authority on the building site than yourself you are ripping your customer off for both the time spent and the material used. You are not building better buildings you are building the same building that costs more, has poorer energy retention, and takes longer.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:48 PM   #315
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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long before
wrong, we were good until you started the second bottle and had a CAPS attack.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:50 PM   #316
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Originally Posted by Inner10 View Post
All I know is someone should build an 8 foot wall both blocked and unblocked and measure stud bow with increasing loads until they both collapse.
Yeah, but you gotta put 20000 lbs on it. Like land a helicopter on it, or drive a loaded truck onto it, it doesn't count it you just put 40-50 lbs /ft2 on it.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:51 PM   #317
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


that second one always gets me too
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:52 PM   #318
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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Sigh... no, that is not what I am saying, do you see me saying that anywhere?

Please explain where the ten tons (20000 lbs) that you mentioned are coming from, you keep ignoring that while making up things I did say.

I believe I expressly stated that if that load were to appear on a stud it would help if that stud had lateral bracing, did you read that part? Then I asked where that type of load would come from. You didn't answer, you just implied that I have not worked in years. OK.

The fact that I have been working longer than you have been alive does not mean I build better than you but it does mean something like I know kinda how these systems work and blocking between studs does next to nothing structurally for a building (as all those people you dismiss agree with: engineers and architects, who have scientific evidence for this that can be reproduced at will). If you do it for any other reason than you are told to by someone with more authority on the building site than yourself you are ripping your customer off for both the time spent and the material used. You are not building better buildings you are building the same building that costs more, has poorer energy retention, and takes longer.
then what are you saying? you're saying lateral bracing would help but there are no loads? do we need bearing walls then really? I don't get you.

I understand you don't want to side with me because i have no data for you to show the actual number. I understand you think lateral bracing is not a bad idea and there is something to be said about it. Well that's what I'm saying, it's a good practice.
i don't charge extra for blocking walls don't worry. i do it because it looks good.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:06 PM   #319
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


I bet the electricians and plumbers might have something to say about all of the extra drilling. And in exterior walls blocking reduces the R value for the space the block occupies. 5 1/2" of wood does not equal R19/R21 which is required here. That's why we are supposed to make our outside corners - channels rather than typical 3 laminated studs (or 2 with blocks). Insulation becomes an issue.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:07 PM   #320
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Re: Fun With Wood X-bridging


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then what are you saying? you're saying lateral bracing would help but there are no loads? do we need bearing walls then really? I don't get you.

I understand you don't want to side with me because i have no data for you to show the actual number. I understand you think lateral bracing is not a bad idea and there is something to be said about it. Well that's what I'm saying, it's a good practice.
i don't charge extra for blocking walls don't worry. i do it because it looks good.
Thank you for not flaming.

What I am saying is that the extra work and material you are putting into your walls is serving no purpose. Yes, absolutely it makes your walls stronger laterally to a small degree under loads that they are not designed to take or pass on and will never receive.

You are doing it because it is the fire code where you are. For no other reason. There is no other reason.

Quote:
i don't charge extra for blocking walls don't worry. i do it because it looks good.
I thought you did it for structural reasons, or 'best practice' reasons, now you have devolved to 'because it looks good'? And you do it for free?

Take a deep breath, listen to some of the guys on this site way more knowledgeable than me about the craft and maybe you'll make it to be whining about your knees and back after 40 years of framing.

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