Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist - Framing - Contractor Talk

Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist

 
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:07 PM   #1
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Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Hello.

My header/rim joists on a house i'm framing our moved in 1.5" all around the foundation to allow for exterior 1.5" R7 rigid insulation, The exterior osb on the walls will run down to a inch below the bottom of the headers. Can i still add a ledger board for my deck? I've attached them with lag bolts right through the sheathing into my header joist on the other side, but havent attempted a install where there is 1.5" of insulation between the ledger and the header joist.. Just drill through and use longer lag bolts and it should be ok?

looks somewhat like the diagram below but theres no insulation yet on the inside. SIDING> OSB> 1.5" POLYSTYRENE INSULATION > HEADER JOIST
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Last edited by ryanh; 09-17-2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason: update
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:42 PM   #2
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


The I joists will offer little support. Might I suggest adding Piers close to the house (free standing) or bolt it to the concrete wall.

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Old 09-17-2008, 10:49 PM   #3
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Header joist?
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:59 PM   #4
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


If your rim joist is just an engineered I-beam joist, that's not enough support for a deck ledger in and of itself, regardless of the insulation issue.

You'll want solid (2x12) blocking between your house I-beam joists (every other bay) w/ plywood fillers to fill out the gap between block and I-beam web. This goes on the inside of your house rim joist.

As to the insulation issue - myself, I'd have solid blocking behind your deck ledger board connection points all the way through to the interior blocking. That would mean plywood fillers on both sides of the rim joist (instead of insulation) where you were planning on bolting the deck ledger to the house (use through bolts instead of lags).
Having said that, I'm going to keep tabs on this thread myself 'cause others may have a more elegant solution.

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Old 09-18-2008, 12:20 AM   #5
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Is your header/rim joist a I-joist?

You really did not clarify this and said it is similar to pic.

If it is you cannot hang anything from it.

Now did you know when this was framed that a deck was going to be installed?

And if you did, did you tell the I-joist supplier/engineer that a deck was going to be installed on this rim.

Normally if you tell them, they will spec a LVL for a rim joist. With a LVL you could then hang a deck off of it. And remember you cannot use normal framing lumber as a rim joist with I-joists, ie. 2x12 hem-fir, etc.



I always make sure when I am ordering the i-joist package that they know if a deck is going to be installed.

You can then install the deck ledger with Simpson SDS screws or a through bolt. I don't use lags because I just don't trust them in veneered lumber. And usually use through bolts with very larger washers, and spacers to keep the ledger away from the wall.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:22 AM   #6
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Quote:
Originally Posted by BuiltByMAC View Post
If your rim joist is just an engineered I-beam joist, that's not enough support for a deck ledger in and of itself, regardless of the insulation issue.

You'll want solid (2x12) blocking between your house I-beam joists (every other bay) w/ plywood fillers to fill out the gap between block and I-beam web. This goes on the inside of your house rim joist.

As to the insulation issue - myself, I'd have solid blocking behind your deck ledger board connection points all the way through to the interior blocking. That would mean plywood fillers on both sides of the rim joist (instead of insulation) where you were planning on bolting the deck ledger to the house (use through bolts instead of lags).
Having said that, I'm going to keep tabs on this thread myself 'cause others may have a more elegant solution.

Mac


Mac has a good solution here if you need to retrofit this.

But this will entail cutting and removing the exterior sheathing, etc.

And just reread your post. You said something about lagging into the header joist on the other side. I hope this was not a I-joist also, and why does the other side not have the insulation that this side has?

Last edited by Kgmz; 09-18-2008 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:45 PM   #7
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


I haven't seen a detail like that for awhile. It's the old school TJI rim method I'm not even sure they do this anymore.

But to put a ledger on that? No. You need meat. You'd need to replace that TJI with some type of approved rim board and would be better to double that sucker up so your lags really grab into it.

But to have 1.5" of ridgid insulation on top of that, it's not a good scenario. You are essentially floating your lags for 2" or so before you get to the meat part. I'd suggest putting a solid 2x there instead of the insul board and insulating inside the rim to make up for it.
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:10 AM   #8
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Not using LVL for joists, using 2x10's for all joists. rim joists had to be moved in 1.5 all around the house so that they would fit properly on the center beam so we added 1.5" insulation all around (pink stuff). Now they decided they want a deck spaning the front of the home(52' wide). We have 2" R10 rigid insulation on the backside of the rim joists also so I guess in the front we will take it off and add another 2x10 for a double rim joist and that should be good?
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:21 AM   #9
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanh View Post
Not using LVL for joists, using 2x10's for all joists. ...in the front we will add another 2x10 for a double rim joist and that should be good?
As long as your rim joist is a solid 2x10 as well, that'd be good 'n solid. Mount your pt ledger, flash properly, run bolts through and you're good to go...

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Old 09-23-2008, 02:39 PM   #10
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


It is solid, we just have that 1.5" insulation in front. I'll just remove it and add another 2x10 in there
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:16 PM   #11
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanh View Post
It is solid, we just have that 1.5" insulation in front. I'll just remove it and add another 2x10 in there
Sounds good for your deck. But you plan on getting all this approved by your building department right? If your inspector sees a deck with nothing on the plans, he'll say, uhh what's this? Decks that I have framed always spec out what kind of lags to use, how far apart to space them, what size ledger/hangers, etc. That should all be approved first.

About removing your insulation board, you're in Canada so I have no idea what the codes are. But maybe that's required because of the cold weather. You might have to rip out the 2 x 10 you have in there and cut little squares of that foam to put between each joist. I would find out first.

Btw, some framing tips, do as much as you can on the ground. Generally the more you build on the ground, the faster. Before standing the walls, I would have had both top plates on, blocking for my osb seams in, the lower part of osb on, you can let it overhang the bottom of your wall while it's sitting on the ground. And when you build your deck, nail the joist hangers on your ledger while it's on the ground, not after you attach it to the building.
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:45 PM   #12
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Quote:
Originally Posted by KennMacMoragh View Post
Btw, some framing tips, do as much as you can on the ground. Generally the more you build on the ground, the faster. Before standing the walls, I would have had both top plates on, blocking for my osb seams in, the lower part of osb on, you can let it overhang the bottom of your wall while it's sitting on the ground. And when you build your deck, nail the joist hangers on your ledger while it's on the ground, not after you attach it to the building.
Maybe your fir lumber lets you
get away with that.
With TYP there is too much variation
in the dimensions.
That's a prescription for a wavy
deck.
We set the joist by the top.
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:53 PM   #13
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Re: Adding A Ledger Board To A Exterior Insulated Header Joist


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Maybe your fir lumber lets you
get away with that.
With TYP there is too much variation
in the dimensions.
That's a prescription for a wavy
deck.
We set the joist by the top.
Never seen anyone do that, but not a bad idea. Actually it is a problem sometimes with fir lumber. I shim up the low ones and notch out the high ones. But usually I don't have to do that, and even if the joists aren't perfectly in-line, the decking can cover it and come out straight.

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