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Casing Doors

 
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:39 AM   #1
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Casing Doors


I need help with how to case doors so that the miters are tight. The two ways I've tried it have been laying all my pieces on the ground, gluing one side, putting them together perfectly, and shooting it with 1 3/8 brads. As soon as I pick it up, the joints open up no matter how hard I try.

Option 2 is putting the head on the door with 1/4" reveals and then gluing legs and shooting brads through the corners. That also doesn't seem to work well since the jamb isn't perfect with the wall. I really want these to look nice where no caulk is needed on the miter and it stays together for years but it just doesn't work well usually. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Working with 2 1/4" primed finger joined casing btw.
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:49 AM   #2
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Re: Casing Doors


Just glue and clamp them. Wait till they dry then put in place.

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Old 08-16-2013, 12:59 PM   #3
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Re: Casing Doors


Get some Collins Mitertite clamps or a set of Jim Chestnut's Clam Clamps.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:18 PM   #4
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Re: Casing Doors


What kind of glue?? How long are you waiting?
I use 2P-10 with the activator, 10 seconds and it's good.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:37 PM   #5
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Re: Casing Doors


I've used a small upholstery staple gun, same gun I put foam sole seal on wall plates, or house wrap and felt paper, on walls with (framing duties), and nail across the miter joint on the back side 2 or 3 times, 5/16" legs, 1/2" crown. Also I use 1-1/4" by 1/4" crown staples to hold the corners instead of brads (works well with softer paint grade materials, the harder stain grade hard woods can be ornery, use 1/4" legs for harder woods, and brads).

Even with a strong miter joint it is important to keep the door frame from racking during install. A keeper nail from the jamb into the door is necessary, once the hinge side has been lightly pinned pull the jamb out gently and remove the nail. If the doors are heavy use a block/wedge under the door to help hold up the latch side.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:49 PM   #6
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Re: Casing Doors


With option 1 you've got to let the glue dry. A couple of brads are not going to hold the thing together. Also, unless its a perfect fit wood glue needs clamping pressure, you're not getting that with brads.

Option 2 is how a lot of mid range quality guys put up casing. If you go this route remember that it is more important for the trim to be flush on its face than to be tight against the wall. I can make trim look good that will last using this method though there are better ways. Nail the head casing up. Only nail it to the jamb, you need to be able to adjust it to your sides, if the jamp is proud of the drywall you have screwed your chance at a tight miter if you nail it to the wall. Next, install the legs. Sometimes you have to adjust your miter to fit and it extreme cases where the jamb is either proud or recessed you may have to do a compound miter. Before you install the legs put a bead of glue on the backside of the miter. Nail the top of the side to the jamb then shoot a brad from the top and the side of the corner of the miter to pin it and tighten it up. Finish nailing the side casing to the jamb. Don't go back and nail it to the wall until the glue has had time to dry. Use common sense and adjust this technique according to the situation.

If you want to pre-assemble the casing fast use 2P-10. Use caution as if you put to much pressure on it it will crack the joint, its a little different that Titebond but works well if you don't stress it to much.

Best is clam clamps. I would use 2P-10 and use my own pressure to glue the joint before I would use collin's clamps.
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:05 PM   #7
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer
With option 1 you've got to let the glue dry. A couple of brads are not going to hold the thing together. Also, unless its a perfect fit wood glue needs clamping pressure, you're not getting that with brads.

Option 2 is how a lot of mid range quality guys put up casing. If you go this route remember that it is more important for the trim to be flush on its face than to be tight against the wall. I can make trim look good that will last using this method though there are better ways. Nail the head casing up. Only nail it to the jamb, you need to be able to adjust it to your sides, if the jamp is proud of the drywall you have screwed your chance at a tight miter if you nail it to the wall. Next, install the legs. Sometimes you have to adjust your miter to fit and it extreme cases where the jamb is either proud or recessed you may have to do a compound miter. Before you install the legs put a bead of glue on the backside of the miter. Nail the top of the side to the jamb then shoot a brad from the top and the side of the corner of the miter to pin it and tighten it up. Finish nailing the side casing to the jamb. Don't go back and nail it to the wall until the glue has had time to dry. Use common sense and adjust this technique according to the situation.

If you want to pre-assemble the casing fast use 2P-10. Use caution as if you put to much pressure on it it will crack the joint, its a little different that Titebond but works well if you don't stress it to much.

Best is clam clamps. I would use 2P-10 and use my own pressure to glue the joint before I would use collin's clamps.
I've stopped trying option 1, it never worked. The 2P-10 sounds nice for a fast trim up. I had been wanting to get some anyway.

I did option 2 today on 7 doors in an addition we are finishing off, and it went well. In the past I never let the glue set up, (never really new I was supposed to... Just caulked the miter later when it opened it up). I had also fully nailed off everything typically, so today I tried almost exactly how you said and it worked well. On about 2 I broke the joint nailing it to the wall after about 2 hours, but that was before reading your helpful suggestions which I can see would make it go better.

What is option 3, for the high quality guys? I'm striving to do the best work I can, as fits the job, and would like to know if there is an even better way for high end stuff.

I have seen on here guys mention 2P-10 in dots on the edges with titebond in the middle. Is this because of the strength issue you mentioned or because its cheaper?

Thanks for all the advice
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:49 PM   #8
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtrememtnbiker View Post
What is option 3, for the high quality guys? I'm striving to do the best work I can, as fits the job, and would like to know if there is an even better way for high end stuff.

I have seen on here guys mention 2P-10 in dots on the edges with titebond in the middle. Is this because of the strength issue you mentioned or because its cheaper?

Thanks for all the advice
Glad I can help. To me option three is clam clamps. I have done it the way you are for a long time. Reason being that is the way the guys I worked for did things. We actually wouldn't even use glue, which is such a simple step that helps so much.

As you work with glue more you'll get a feel for what is what. Titebond II is amazing stuff, IF you have pressure. Take the pressure away and it is nothing special. It will crack like anything else. Clam clamps put a tremendous amount of pressure on the miter joint. If allowed to dry the wood will break before the glue. Throw a biscuit in there with the clam clamp force and you have option 3, an unbreakable miter joint.

Best way I can describe the difference between Titebond and 2P-10 is this, Titebond makes the wood become one, it bonds but has a little bit of "flex". With 2P-10 you get more of a "super strong sandwich", you have wood-glue-wood, it is great in that it sets up fast but the glue itself is more like "glass". Put enough pressure on it and the sandwich will come apart. The glue will just "crack" all at once.

When you dot some 2P-10 on the edge with titebond in the middle you combine the best of both worlds. You get the instant holding power of 2P-10, while the titebond will dry and give you the permanent bond.

Best way to learn is to just take some scraps, glue them, give them varied lengths of time, and try and break them. That will give you a really good idea.

I should add, clam clamps are about $70/pc. I wanted some for a long time and bought 4 a few months ago. Don't know how I lived without them. But I would need more to do production trim work with them.

Hope this helps.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #9
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Re: Casing Doors


90% of your problem would be eliminated if you rolled the head pieces in your miter box. If the jamb is proud of the wall, lift the short point of the miter about the same amount as the jamb is proud of the wall. By rolling just the head piece, the tips will be slightly long at the top, but not enough to notice. We used to do this with stain jobs on a daily basis back when 90% of what we did was stain work.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:59 PM   #10
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Re: Casing Doors


Iíve try to preassemble them Ė but Iím not a big fan of that method - I would rather fit each piece to the jamb Iíve got to deal with. I do as Railman says and roll the pieces Ė this works for many of them If the jamb is way out, Iíll pull the angle finder off the Kapex to get it. Iíll also ďplaneĒ the drywall with a knife and chisel if the drywall is proud.

We do clamp stain grade work - Titebond for 30 min.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:31 PM   #11
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Railman View Post
90% of your problem would be eliminated if you rolled the head pieces in your miter box. If the jamb is proud of the wall, lift the short point of the miter about the same amount as the jamb is proud of the wall. By rolling just the head piece, the tips will be slightly long at the top, but not enough to notice. We used to do this with stain jobs on a daily basis back when 90% of what we did was stain work.
Can't believe I've never done that before. Thanks for the tip. You're just talking about having the jamb side of the trim closer to you and lifting it slightly as you do your miter right? So simple it makes me mad.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:26 PM   #12
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Re: Casing Doors


I've gone to pre-assembling all casing. 2P-10 and pocket screws make for bombproof miters.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:14 AM   #13
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
Can't believe I've never done that before. Thanks for the tip. You're just talking about having the jamb side of the trim closer to you and lifting it slightly as you do your miter right? So simple it makes me mad.
Keep a few different sized thin pieces of cut-off laying around. Size the piece used based on the difference between the jamb and wall. To support/shim the 'roll'.

Did a retail store fit up a while back. After "tenderizing" the drywall, with the 28oz estwing & still needed close to 1/8" shims to roll the casing. As long as the cut faces are parallel, aka tight front and back, glue sets fast & Strong. I'll tack to the jamb and start nailing 16" down to the wall, after the fit is good. Let it sit for 10-15 mins then come back and brad nail at the outside corner of the miter and finish nailing. The Miter joint has to be tight when the casing is pushed tight to the wall, otherwise it'll likely open when it's nailed close to the joint.
The job super on that project would have run us off if we tried to use the tube of big black caulk to close up the miters... It was black prefinished gloss lacquer.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:22 AM   #14
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester P. View Post
I've gone to pre-assembling all casing. 2P-10 and pocket screws make for bombproof miters.
OP said
Quote:
Working with 2 1/4" primed finger joined casing btw.
Didn't know you could pocket that...
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:32 AM   #15
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Re: Casing Doors


On paint grade trim I do as Spencer's option 2. I have a flat bar I put behind any proud trim before I nail it off to the wall to prevent it from breaking the miter joint. Than the void is caulked prior to painting.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:53 AM   #16
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Re: Casing Doors


I like glue and the Collins Clamps. Keeps the miters nice and tight. Good idea to get the pliers that they sell and get a more than the bag of four clamps.

Last edited by sheetrock_22; 08-17-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 08-17-2013, 08:11 PM   #17
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
OP said

Didn't know you could pocket that...
My bad. Still might be able to squeeze one in there with the kreg mini. Placed as close to the heel as safe, then miter clamp for the toe. Now I'm going to have to find some 2 1/4" lying around to test.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:24 PM   #18
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Re: Casing Doors


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My bad. Still might be able to squeeze one in there with the kreg mini. Placed as close to the heel as safe, then miter clamp for the toe. Now I'm going to have to find some 2 1/4" lying around to test.
I don't have the mini. I'd be curious if it works or not.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:20 PM   #19
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Re: Casing Doors


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer View Post
Can't believe I've never done that before. Thanks for the tip. You're just talking about having the jamb side of the trim closer to you and lifting it slightly as you do your miter right? So simple it makes me mad.
If you carry different thicknesses of shims, you can check which shim fits in place, and use it to shim the edge up for the cut. If you aren't doing straight 45s, your measurements are just the cut angle and shim
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #20
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Re: Casing Doors


I've never used the clam clamps but I have both the collins style clamps and another set by a company called Maestro. The Maestro clamps seem to exert more pressure and are my personal favorite. Here's a link:http://amzn.to/17CHnnB


Also, keep in mind that these tips will pretty much get you there if the door was hung well. If it was hung poorly, you're in for a more difficult fight.

I've seen guys drive a shim near the head on the hinge side to increase the strike side reveal. On the hinge side, this creates a reveal that goes from about a 1/16 or less to maybe 3/16 at the first hinge. For some reason, they only care that strike reveal is consistent.

Not only does that look like terrible, it also makes fitting the casing a pain because the corner is no longer 90 degrees.

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