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Marketing Smart In Todays Economy

 
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:55 PM   #21
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remodel Bud View Post
this is not a very intelligent post Mike. It is people like you that cause arguments with name calling and put words in people's mouths. I NEVER said do anything unethical. IT IS A POST ABOUT PEOPLE BUYING COUPONS> HELLO.......TAKE SOME MEDICATION.....go work on your business. You have issues, mental issues.

No it's not it's a post that started out again as your tired one sided crusade to turn all contractors into plaid wearing used car salesman, which then slides tangentially into the scumbag tactics that are only a slippery slope away the methods you embrace, which you then give a big ass smooch where you celebrate the tiniest sliver of somebody posting a reply with 2% releveance to your topic which you hope giving credibility to you without taking into account your tactics have now slid the discussion into an area of out right consumer rip off.

You can also stop sending me hordes of private messages about whatever fantasies you're having, they don't get read.

Let's narrow the subject down to the crux of why you get so much flack, here is the statement for you:

Anybody who condones the practice of marking up prices to then mark them down is nothing more than a consumer rip-off artist practicing deceptive trade practices.

Your comments? True or false?
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:03 PM   #22
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Seems to be a pattern here,
if you can't defend yourself
in a public forum, send nasty
PM's instead.

I don't know why we allow this
to begin with, he really doesn't
belong here.
His raison d'etre is raising his
web profile and scamming money.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:13 PM   #23
 
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Finley View Post
I know remodel bud gives you a big sloppy ass licking hurray, but it doesn't change the fact you're a scumbag and just shows what remodel bud is all about.

If I showed up at your business with the 6 O'Clock news in tow with two of your customers, one whose job you quoted at $5000 and the other at $5000 and both jobs were identical and then asked you how did they both come to $5000 when one of the customers had your $500 coupon what would you say?

Would you look right in the camera's lens and say "Hey man, that's how we do business, we inflate the price $500 and then give the customer $500 off! That's my scam."

Would you? Probably not, no I'd imagine you would back peddle and squirm and lie like a scumbag caught and exposed ripping people off.

Just so you know - In many states these mark up to mark down tricks are considered violations of the civil code and deceptive trade practices, in other words they are illegal.

I'm sick and tired of scumbags ripping people off with bulls*t scumbag tactics and making it harder on the rest of us who operate ethically by tainting our industry.

Keep up the good work there remodel bud, these are your peers you agree with so strongly.

Remodel bud you have 300 post and half of them are replies like this:



or this one your reply to the scumbag:



Your transparency is ridiculous. Your only reasons for being here as you stated yourself to increase your internet 'Cred' are at the expense of polluting this forum with your used car salesman tactics and twisting of important ethical issues to the rest of us.

Your atta boy replies to scumbags using scumbag ethical tactics are not helping our industry, just because you want to pretend the end justifies the means and being a scumbag doesn't matter because you're marketing and that's justifiable.

If you can't see the differences I wish you would just leave, enough is enough.

If you have something to contribute do it without dragging our industry through the mud with promotion of underhanded and unethical tactics that won't pass the test of scrutiny by the public or encouraging deceptive trade practices through your all incompassing stamp of approval of it's "Marketing" or its "Salesmanship".

You have an inordinate amount of posts that start off with a marginal "tip" that then slides into a shadow area of slightly unethical behavior - you should really think about that and what you are promoting since you want so badly to be regarded as a home improvement marketing/consulting guru. You should keep in mind all your posts that go south like this show up on internet searches that your potential clients can easily find.
I think you are making alot of assumptions about his motives for posting.

Whether you like the techniques he informs of us of or not, they are helpful in a FULL education of marketing. One can always choose o use them or some of them or none of them.

You are off base with your attack, IMO.

Edit: BTW, marketing is one way to make your business SCALABLE by bringing in more busines so that you don't have to work for wages for the rest of your life. I don't know about you, but I don't work in the field anymore, not since my second year in business. Maybe you still wear a toolbelt and do one job at a time. But I do several big jobs at once (scalable business). It was through marketing and doing what's right for my REPEAT commercial clients. They aren't repeat customers because I am a scumbag used car salesman.

There is something we can learn from everyone, including RB. But maybe you know it all and there is nothing left for you to learn

Last edited by Ivinni; 10-11-2008 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:21 PM   #24
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivinni View Post
I think you are making alot of assumptions about his motives for posting.

Whether you like the techniques he informs of us of or not, they are helpful in a FULL education of marketing. One can always choose o use them or some of them or none of them.

You are off base with your attack, IMO.
1) Respectfully - you are uniformed in regard to his motives for posting.

2) Full education in marketing doesn't include 'atta boys' and endorsing deceptive trade practices.

There is no grey area here, this is not about marketing. Please explain why you think any of this has anything to do with your business being scalable, or you not wearing a tool belt?

Does it mean that you condone misleading marketing, illegal tactics, deceptive trade practices as long as it means you don't wear your tool belt anymore?????????

We will give you the same opportunity :

Anybody who condones the practice of marking up prices to then mark them down is nothing more than a consumer rip-off artist practicing deceptive trade practices.

Your comments? True or false?

Last edited by Mike Finley; 10-11-2008 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:22 PM   #25
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivinni View Post
I think you are making alot of assumptions about his motives for posting.

Whether you like the techniques he informs of us of or not, they are helpful in a FULL education of marketing. One can always choose o use them or some of them or none of them.

You are off base with your attack, IMO.
With all due respect, he's not off base.
He's making a case that this is a place
for contractors (the construction kind).
There are plenty of marketing types,
salesmen, you name it...who would like to
use this audience and this web exposure
for their own ends.
I agree that this is just pollution and makes
the forum less useful, not to mention less
enjoyable.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:32 PM   #26
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remodel Bud View Post
SEEMS like a pattern, you being hostile. You want my bio, research it. it pretty valid. yours?
Please! Have mercy.
How can I survive the indisputable
logic, and superior reasoning of your
defense.
I surrender to your withering attacks.



[Retreats from the field of honor in bloody disarray.]
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:36 PM   #27
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


the answer can be true or false

Higher markups can exist to increase your profit margin. But you can still discount the cost and make your needed margins and you can play the law of averages and have only say 30% of your business come from the coupon (scam) errr I mean sales method.


What happens to people who use store coupons or mail in rebates versus those who don't or companies that don't offer them??

Are the companies that do offer them scam artists? are the people using them getting scammed?

Just playing devils advocate here
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:03 PM   #28
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by rbsremodeling View Post
the answer can be true or false

Higher markups can exist to increase your profit margin. But you can still discount the cost and make your needed margins and you can play the law of averages and have only say 30% of your business come from the coupon (scam) errr I mean sales method.


What happens to people who use store coupons or mail in rebates versus those who don't or companies that don't offer them??

Are the companies that do offer them scam artists? are the people using them getting scammed?

Just playing devils advocate here
The only correlation to the question I asked would be if your retailer did this:

Anybody they offered their rebate to or their coupon to they first marked up the product the amount of the rebate first. If somebody wasn't offered the coupon or the rebate the price they were given wasn't adjusted.

Still waiting on Remodel Bud. Come on, it's a simple question, very simple to answer.
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:07 PM   #29
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Finley View Post
The only correlation to the question I asked would be if your retailer did this:

Anybody they offered their rebate to or their coupon to they first marked up the product the amount of the rebate first. If somebody wasn't offered the coupon or the rebate the price they were given wasn't adjusted.
Agreed, apples to baseballs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Finley View Post
Still waiting on Remodel Bud. Come on, it's a simple question, very simple to answer.
I think he isn't allowed to answer any longer.
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:41 PM   #30
 
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Agreed, apples to baseballs.



I think he isn't allowed to answer any longer.
i choose not to. i have recv'd numerous messages about your lack of intelligent input. i chose not to read your
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:42 PM   #31
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Not in defense of anyone, but I send out coupons all of the time and have continually done so for over 20 years.

Firstly, regarding the 6:00 News argument, in my instance, I would state that there is no such thing as 2 identical jobs, unless they are new construction from the same blue prints. Even then, employee transitions and weather and consumers over-looking and criticquing the project can affect the lineal results.

I justify my desire to deserve an approximate 50 % gross profit on sales, which translates to between a 25 % to 30 % Net Profit, due to a lower volume marketing plan. Do less work for more profitability per job, but strive for perfection and 100 % customer satisfaction. The additional margin allows me room to fix something and still earn a living and more, at least in most previous economies.

I hate it when a customer receives one of my coupons after they have already signed a contract, but I honestly can tell the consumer that I do not know when the coupons are going out to select targeted zip code demographics. I will at that point find a perceived equal value item to add into the project, rather than discount the job after it has already been agreed to, or require them to get me 1-3 referrals for the discount to apply, or it also depends on the customers demeanor and how likely they seem to me to allow me to work unimpeded and make my targeted mark for profit, rather than being subjected to close scrutiny every step of the way.

Does that mean, that under the right or wrong conditions, I would not allow a customer and myself to negotiate some other variance of a perceived discount?

Absolutely not. There are many add ons and take aways that can be combined to get them to their desired expectation of the discount they wanted.

Also, the manner that Sider Tom mentioned to increase prices, just to be able to portray a false discount seems unethical.

But, what if you allow yourself to increase your pricing by that same percentage figure, or exactly $ 500.00 and find that you still sell the projects without having to offer the discount?

Doesn't that just dent your brain just enough to reaize that your previous perception of the value of your work was unjustifiably too low? Now, you have set a new and higher bar for yourself to attempt to obtain.

Do you want enough just to survive, or a little more, so your company can grow and make it through the harder down periods?

I remember reading in the old CCN Forum, about a discount strategy, called the SCSP, which smelled an awful lot like the presumed inflated price with an immediate discount for a one time close.

The only difference, being that the one time close can justifiably be reasoned out and prove that their is a cost savings benefit to your organization to get the deal resolved upon the first appointment, which could be logically and accountably shown to reationalize up to an immediate 10 % discount. The only way to be able to do that, is to be the contractor of choice, who setd the standards in your area for your type of services.

So, it just depends on your own personal motivation and insight, on how you personally are looking at the offering of a discount at the time of attempting to close. The same goes for the coupon discount amount tendered.

Ed
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:44 PM   #32
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remodel Bud View Post
i choose not to. i have recv'd numerous messages about your lack of intelligent input. i chose not to read your
You can choose to click the "Ignore" button, if any particular poster offends you, so that you do not have to get riled up at their comments.

Ed
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:00 PM   #33
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remodel Bud View Post
its not what I read, it is the amount of unintelligent info you let everyone else be subject to,
wow.
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Old 10-11-2008, 03:15 PM   #34
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Good Lord.
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Old 10-11-2008, 04:01 PM   #35
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivinni View Post
I think you are making alot of assumptions about his motives for posting.
I'm 100% sure that Mike is dead-on with his 'assumptions' for our Buddy's posting.

This is ripped straight from Remodel Buddy's blog:

Business Consultants "Remodel Buddy" In The News

Using Internet Forums For Your Marketing


Tim Nagle, in the Richmond VA area, has started promoting his consulting business through constructive contractortalk.com postings. One of the most effective ways for you to market professional and consulting services is to achieve expert status on relevant Internet forums. As you contribute and post your insights and observations, your reputation will soar — if you do it right.

Sometimes, new people arrive on the scene with a real splash. TimNagle, who goes by the user ID “Remodel Bud” joined the fray with some provocative posting beginning with this thread, “Sales Training Instruction 9 - 2 - 08″. Intrigued, I phoned Nagle, whoseRemodelBuddy weblink takes you to a regional leads referral service for the Richmond, VA area. Before starting out on his own as a consultant/local leads service provider, Nagle had been a partner of one of the most successful home improvement companies in the nation; Champion Window, Siding and Patio room. Tim Nagle took over the Richmond branch, which he turned from a money-losing business into one of the most successful branches in the Champion network, generating upwards of $10 million in sales each year.


Blah blah blah.....

So there you go, in his own words, the guy is just using this forum for his own benefit. He is not sharing info with peers to help out the industry (like I assume most of are here for). After I found his blog, and found out the real reason he is here posting, it just plain makes me feel dirty. To get on a forum and post a bunch of "controversial" sales techniques to "achieve expert status", well that's just bunk. Kind of tough to make yourself an expert, when you're already surrounded by the experts that can see right through the smoke and mirrors.
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Old 10-11-2008, 04:09 PM   #36
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


But PWG you are not being respectful!

Guess you only show respect where it's due.

Welcome to the Bitter & Sour Club.
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Old 10-11-2008, 04:17 PM   #37
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remodel Bud View Post
its not what I read, it is the amount of unintelligent info you let everyone else be subject to,from a few people that cannot be respectful
That is for anyone reading to determine, whether the source has any merit.

Who am I to judge for everyone else's eyes and minds, which information may or may not be relevant.

Censorship of other peoples opinions should not occur, lest we only hear and read what we agree with already. Non-Comformity of opinions creates tangible room for debate from opposing perspectives.

Remember, your own site inferred that one can substantially beef up their own business credibility by posting on forums such as this. Some members obviously feel that you are just using their art of discussion to self-promote your own credentials. So, accept who you are and either change peoples perception of your motives, by continuing to post on topics and adding meaningful content, or continue shaking your fist and pressing the Report Button every time someone offends you. I feel the first option would prove if you are really man enough to vindicate yourself. Your choice though.

Just because someone vehemontly disagrees with another person or their methods, does not make either one right or wrong.

I would be even more cautious, if I were in your shoes, to be casting proclomations to specific posters credibility, depicting their opinions as unintelligent.

In a most respectfull way; May I suggest that you open your eyes to other peoples opinions, especially when they do not agree with yours, rather than allow obscure comments to get under your skin.

If someone personally attacks you in a manner that is not conducive to a construction related and contractor specific forum, then, it would be apprpriate to report a harmful attack.

Conversely, just because someone disputes your credibility and the achievments you profess to have obtained, due to your methodology of obtaining those results, I would disagree that those types of remarks are a personal attack or ongoing vendetta against you.

NOW:
For other posters too.....

I think you have gotten your point across, that you don't feel his opinions or methods merit any validation, but there are many people who learn from all sorts of postings, since they have no experience of their own to draw upon. There are many posters who do find substance in this posters methodology too.

A lesson can be learned from the old Romper Room Show for kids many years ago.

There was a segment on each day, which was about how to be a:

Do Be

and a

Don't Be

Each individual should be able to choose which side of any argument thay prefer to learn from.

Just my own personal opinion, as I am not speaking for the rest of the forum or the moderators collectively.

Peace-Out...

Why Can't We Be Friends, Why Can't We Be Friends.....(repeat)

Ed
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:02 PM   #38
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Mr Toilet,

Way to pick on the new guy. I believe similair marketing statements to mine were given by others too. Why do you choose not to call them out?

Are all of your jobs the same price? Do you hand your customers a catalog of services with pictures and prices and let them choose what to pay? Me neither. By your ethics, if I sell to a customer at a discount, then all previous and future customers are entitled to the same discount. I am not Home Depot, if I can make more money on a job, I will. It is foolish to leave money on the table. This does not mean my customers are being scammed. They are paying what they want to. With the information available on the internet and the availability of free estimates, my customers are usually very informed about their decisions. Most of my sales are because I have earned their confidence through sales presentation, my past work, reputation or referrals. Some people just want to pay more (you have to earn these customers). Some people can only pay less. They both need services and I am willing to sell to them both.

I would gladly meet with the 6 O'clock news. There is nothing to hide. Prices for work in the construction industry vary for many reasons. A price can increase because the homeowner is difficult to work with or because the job is difficult. Job site conditions, changes in material and labor cost add to the price of projects. My prices will even go up or down depending on our work load. Are you going to tell me that you never inflated a bid because you didn't want the job or were to busy? Isn't it nice when one of those come in? There is nothing unethical about setting the price for my services.

Is it unethical for the box stores to discount off a suggested retail price when the product has never sold at that price? Is it really 50% off when they normally sell at 46% off the suggested retail price? Somebody call a price checker I think I am getting scammed.

I have been hanging out in the shadows here reading all that I can. There is a wealth of information on this site. For that I thank the creators. It seems to me that there are a lot of people in this industry that have worked their way up through the ranks to owning their own business. Most of them have not gone to college to learn how to run a business. Some may not even have a high school diploma. Most are probably very good at their chosen trades. They have learned all they know from looking over the shoulder of their boss and through thier own sucess and failures. These people are craving knowledge.

Mr toilet, it is quite obvious that the way you run your business works for you. My guess is you have a solid clientelle and don't need to advertise very often. You are quite entitled to your opinion but it is not the end all. There are many people on this site that want to understand how to make more money doing the same work. My two cents; sometimes they just need to ask for it. This is not ethics, this is capitalism. If something works for me maybe it will help them. Like everything else in this world, take what you want and leave what you don't.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:05 PM   #39
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
Firstly, regarding the 6:00 News argument, in my instance, I would state that there is no such thing as 2 identical jobs, unless they are new construction from the same blue prints. Even then, employee transitions and weather and consumers over-looking and criticquing the project can affect the lineal results.
Being able to convince someone else that there are not two identical jobs does not change the fact that the technique being used is deceptive and basically illegal. Just because jobs are different enough that you could get away with not being pinned down for marking up only to mark down doesn't change the fact that you would be marking up to mark down, it only changes that you could probably get away with it. That doesn't change what you are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
I hate it when a customer receives one of my coupons after they have already signed a contract, but I honestly can tell the consumer that I do not know when the coupons are going out to select targeted zip code demographics. I will at that point find a perceived equal value item to add into the project, rather than discount the job after it has already been agreed to, or require them to get me 1-3 referrals for the discount to apply, or it also depends on the customers demeanor and how likely they seem to me to allow me to work unimpeded and make my targeted mark for profit, rather than being subjected to close scrutiny every step of the way.Ed
Once again, what you can get away with - denying your customer his right to your advertised offer by making him give you referals which the offer doesn't say he needs to do to claim it, or making the customer accept something else extra added to the job above what has been agreed to even though your offer doesn't say this -- does not make it right, only that you are getting away with false advertising.

Here's the thing. Make your damn offer and stick to it or don't make it.

If you don't want to be caught by your customer doing the mark up to mark down because he pulls the coupon on you after the numbers are given, simply add a simple stipulation to the coupon, that it must be presented before the numbers are given.

No consumers will know you're pulling a fast one with that line. But at least it keeps what you are doing legal.


There is nothing wrong with offering a coupon, simply offer it fairly and with no deception. Print your stipulations on it. Make it subject to a minimum order of $10,000 if you want, or must include a minimum of 10 windows of some quality.

But let's stop the BS with marking up a customers job if they present a coupon, the amount of the coupon for one customer and not marking up a customers job the amount of the coupon if they don't have it. That's 100% wrong, deceptive and most likely illegal. It's black and white.

If anyone can't see this as black and white you should really wonder about your standards.
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Old 10-11-2008, 05:08 PM   #40
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Re: Marketing Smart In Todays Economy


Who is Mr. Toilet??


I don't think I have a spoon big enough to stir this pot. Put I will keep looking for it









I really do love all you guys I just can't help it

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At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

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