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Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans

 
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:53 PM   #1
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Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


so client hired architect for his condo remodel
client walked them through the city
and i met him there and put my name on as the contractor.

as we were going over the plans , i noticed that the architect didn't have mechanical page
on the first page , it shows that the a/c unit is moving about 5 feet over .

client has been back to his architect a couple times , and the architect has made it clear he doesn`t want to do much more for this client , and if he does he charges very high. ( im not involved in their financial relationship , but i have to be in the middle of discussions)

i was part of a 3- way conversation with the architect today .
he wants to charge the client another $2500 to make a mechanical page
i said , " but aren't you supposed to supply a mechanical page if moving the a/c unit is on that plans
he insists that he doesn't . he said the client only agreed to building electric , and plumbing
client said " i though it was all inclusive !!"

who is right ?

does he have to , or not have to supply a mechanical page ? can he after the fact say he wants more money for mechanical when he clearly shows it moving on the first page?
this is in miami
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:58 PM   #2
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


it is customary the archy provides a full set of drawings/details for framing & MEPS.

however, what the archy & client agreed to may be something entirely different.

$2500 for a residential m page(s) sounds rather high and basically a puck you to the client.

what does their agreement/contract say?

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Old 01-19-2019, 12:31 AM   #3
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


Do you really need the architect to do the mechanical plan? I have my HVAC guy send it to his supplier who does it for about $200.
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:02 AM   #4
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


Every project I was involved in, being this my project or the homeowner and me hiring the architect or the homeowner you know right away what the architect will do and what his responsibilities are.

That said when it comes to the building departments requirements, everyone knows that every licensed entity must fulfill their own obligation to meet the requirements of the building department to obtain a building permit.

Therefore an Architect will usually provide all the general notations and details and address all the requirements to obtain a building permit, i.e drawings, cross-section elevations, etc.
Most will include an electrical layout per code and some will include a plumbing riser diagram on their own, or if that was requested by the homeowner or contractor.
I never saw an Architect being responsible for HVAC plan layout because for that you need a Mechanical Engineer. Therefore he needs to hire one and that will cost extra and I'm sure he will need to scratch his own palm for doing extra work.
If the mechanical layout is required, I go to my HVAC guy with a plan copy and he marks the layout on the drawing and provides needed calculations for the town.
My plumber and electrician will provide all needed if the Architect didn't include the details on the drawings.

To the OP, if you want your architect to do the HVAC layout, he is charging you for Mechanical Engineer fees to do the drawings and calculations and like I said before he probably added something on top...as the $2,500 number is, it depends on the project size etc, but I'm sure if you have an HVAC contractor they will do that for you free of charge because they already have the layout per which they price each job and if they doing the job they will not charge you anything for the layout (most companies won't if they do the job).

Good luck
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:45 AM   #5
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


ok , i get it

first off the client is a real nice guy but real indecisive, takes a long time for things to get done , so i can understand architect not wanting to continue a relationship because this client likes a lot of lip-service

understood that the drawing has to be done by a mechanical engineer, but is an architect responsible for a specific thing as for a set of plans , or is it just basically what 2 people agree to in a contract.
can an architect leave mechanical out, knowing it has to be in there to get the job inspected , and finalized?and then come back , and gouge the client like this?
can he leave out electric , and plumbing for that matter if your paying him for a set of working plans that are to be permitted?

does he have to meet any certain criteria legally?
does his plan have to be a plan that shows a complete project finish to end.

thats my main question

if you were this home owner , and you go in there , and ask for a set of plans to remodel your condo ,
does the architect , knowing this is a permitted job , have any obligation to make a set of plans that will pass all inspections , and show all details for a complete permitted job .

or can he really say " i didn`t include mechanical , you have to pay extra .
i`m sure the client didn't say " leave out mechanical" he isn't that construction-savy
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:59 AM   #6
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


the architect is obligated to supply what ever he and the client agreed to.

now if you had a contract with the archy and it stated that the architect is to provide a full set of build ready drawings & details to complete the project, specifically to include civil, foundation, framing, plumbing, hvac, electrical, finishes etc etc...you would have a way to get what you want.

i would have a friendly argument with Greg that on most residential an archy can at least locate the hvac equipment & runs with a note stating that the mechanical contractor to specify equipment.

i get the impression that you are dealing with an inexperienced archy who is a prick and your home owner is a bit naive and doesn't know what he needs.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:00 AM   #7
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


can an architect leave mechanical out, knowing it has to be in there to get the job inspected , and finalized?and then come back , and gouge the client like this?


Yes he can

can he leave out electric , and plumbing for that matter if your paying him for a set of working plans that are to be permitted?

Yes he can

does he have to meet any certain criteria legally?
does his plan have to be a plan that shows a complete project finish to end.


All he has to do is meet his end of the bargain... Meaning Architect is responsible to provide a set of drawings with elevation views, cross sections, general notations which relate to every aspect of the structure required by the building department EXCEPT ALL Mechanical layouts and details unless it was discussed and agreed prior to signing a contract then he will hire Mechanical Engineer and price it accordingly, same if you required to provide a landscaping plan or details, he would hire a Landscaping Architect at extra charge
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:09 AM   #8
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


Quote:
Originally Posted by griz View Post
the architect is obligated to supply what ever he and the client agreed to.

now if you had a contract with the archy and it stated that the architect is to provide a full set of build ready drawings & details to complete the project, specifically to include civil, foundation, framing, plumbing, hvac, electrical, finishes etc etc...you would have a way to get what you want.

i would have a friendly argument with Greg that on most residential an archy can at least locate the hvac equipment & runs with a note stating that the mechanical contractor to specify equipment.

i get the impression that you are dealing with an inexperienced archy who is a prick and your home owner is a bit naive and doesn't know what he needs.
There is no argument about that, they sure can do that and some will do if it needed or not, and on top of that, they will include a Res Check if asked or not.
But if the town requires a separate Mechanical plan ( like some towns do around here) with specific details (like ductwork sizes, supply and return sizes and calculations) not to mention some towns require all the unit information and manufacturer specs, etc and the architect needs a 3d party, they will charge extra and who can blame them that's a big package to put together.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:31 AM   #9
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
not to mention some towns require all the unit information and manufacturer specs, etc and the architect needs a 3d party, they will charge extra and who can blame them that's a big package to put together.
That’s what’s required in the whole state of Michigan. It’s a pain because the GC is required to provide it to the BO but the companies who do the manual J and manual S won’t even talk to a GC, must be HVAC contractor. You can have it done by some online company for about 3 times the cost. I have my HVAC guy do it and he just adds it to the bill for the HVAC job. What part sucks is it gets done on HVAC dudes and his suppliers timeline and not mine. Can’t start anything without it. I’ve found a way around it but that’s my secret.


It would have made more sense if the stupid government morons would have made it a requirement to pull the mechanical permit instead of the building permit. But if they had any brains they’d work in private industry and not for the government.

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Old 01-19-2019, 11:08 AM   #10
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


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Thatís whatís required in the whole state of Michigan. Itís a pain because the GC is required to provide it to the BO but the companies who do the manual J and manual S wonít even talk to a GC, must be HVAC contractor. You can have it done by some online company for about 3 times the cost. I have my HVAC guy do it and he just adds it to the bill for the HVAC job. What part sucks is it gets done on HVAC dudes and his suppliers timeline and not mine. Canít start anything without it. Iíve found a way around it but thatís my secret.


It would have made more sense if the stupid government morons would have made it a requirement to pull the mechanical permit instead of the building permit. But if they had any brains theyíd work in private industry and not for the government.
They start to do it here, HVAC guys have to pull their own permits in some town and submit mechanical details.
I just did a few basement designs for homeowners and the towns electrical inspector wanted every detail including as is and proposed.
Other towns you just put on the permit jacket amount of fixtures and you good to go.
Some towns you bring something scribled on the napkin and you good to go. I also noticed that the less you put on the drawing the fewer headaches you have to deal with.
I know guys in CA they really have it tough, the requirements there are crazy, they want basically require a drawing and a detail for every screw being used...My heart goes out to them.

I couldn't agree with you more if they would regulate the requirements more or less consistent with every jurisdiction if would make things to go more smoothly and everyone would be on the same page.
But I doubt this will ever happen because it seems of the people who do reviews get off on breaking balls and the more they break them the happier they become.

I remember an engineering plan was rejected because it spelled out "sight" instead of a "site" which caused a 1-month delay because it was going in front of the planning board. I have heard that plans were being kicked back because of a missing "Comma" it just plain ridiculous.
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Old 01-19-2019, 06:30 PM   #11
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


just amazing

it , like always puts the contractor out there , and leaves him responsible to the city, leaves to to satisfy the law
because i can`t get a rough framing till i get all the other roughs
i can`t get a final inspection at the end till i get a final on all items pertaining to the plan .
i dont know if i technically can get my own mechanical engineer , have him make a set of plans , and have that plan attached to that architects sealed set of plans . possibly the city would want that architect to seal that set also .
thats more scandalous than the contractor who leaves out things , and change orders a client to death throughout the projects on things he could have let them know about before-hand.

these are the guys who went to school and wear suits
we`re the guys in jeans and t-shirts , and we have to have all the liability and responsibility.
i always though it should be where an architect carries the liability , since he supplies the drawings for city approval , and knows all the latest codes , while we are the ding-dongs who have no say so , and are" just doing the work"
he should have to come in before all inspection, and make sure things are all to code
yea ,,i know they do that on larger projects , for a fee, but they should always have to do that , they are the educated professionals who charge dramatically more

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Old 01-19-2019, 06:56 PM   #12
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


Quote:
Originally Posted by woodspike View Post
just amazing

it , like always puts the contractor out there , and leaves him responsible to the city, leaves to to satisfy the law
because i can`t get a rough framing till i get all the other roughs
i can`t get a final inspection at the end till i get a final on all items pertaining to the plan .
i dont know if i technically can get my own mechanical engineer , have him make a set of plans , and have that plan attached to that architects sealed set of plans . possibly the city would want that architect to seal that set also .
thats more scandalous than the contractor who leaves out things , and change orders a client to death throughout the projects on things he could have let them know about before-hand.

these are the guys who went to school and wear suits
we`re the guys in jeans and t-shirts , and we have to have all the liability and responsibility.
i always though it should be where an architect carries the liability , since he supplies the drawings for city approval , and knows all the latest codes , while we are the ding-dongs who have no say so , and are" just doing the work"
he should have to come in before all inspection, and make sure things are all to code
yea ,,i know they do that on larger projects , for a fee, but they should always have to do that , they are the educated professionals who charge dramatically more

he with the better lobbyist wins



"effing wa! wa ! wa!!


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Old 01-24-2019, 06:52 AM   #13
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


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Be careful what you ask for.
ha!!
yea..i get it. we`d get a lot of god-like complexes
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:51 AM   #14
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


I'm curious about what they bought. How detailed, how much, and who owns the plans (client or architect)?

Basically wondering if it turned into a "5k nightmare" with client and now architect wants something back....

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Old 01-24-2019, 08:42 PM   #15
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Re: Whats Architects Responsibility On Permit Set Of Plans


[QUOTE=MarkJames;7462165]I'm curious about what they bought. How detailed, how much, and who owns the plans (client or architect)?

Basically wondering if it turned into a "5k nightmare" with client and now architect wants something back....[
client is a nice guy , pleasant

but wants to be involved throughout the whole process
so yes he is a problem. even as i`m working , he tried to have me break the project into pieces , so he could be involved.
i never got to actually give him an entire cost for the full project, because he wanted to keep the plans simple , so he could decide as he goes .
so most of this is hs own doing

on top of that , the architect is a snobby jerk , who doesn't want to give this guy time , and then wants to charge allot .
he basically doesn't want to do much more for this client , but i think he is still tied to him because of these certified plans.
client , , a doctor sometimes has that attitude , that since he is well educated , he knows how to run this project better than me.
he`s anal as hell
but again , i like him , and he is a sincere guy. just too wordy , and wants to constantly go over details
i just found him a designer( that i`ve known for years ) , and i told her to educate him on how this project should run.

i keep telling him:
" just give me a complete set of plans , and let me go to work !"

place is on ius 4th month , and all that's been done is demo, and some sound proofing

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