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-   -   Small island - use stock cabs and parts - how to detail? (https://www.contractortalk.com/f116/small-island-use-stock-cabs-parts-how-detail-86886/)

UpNorth 11-04-2010 11:07 AM

Small island - use stock cabs and parts - how to detail?
 
3 Attachment(s)
The planned arrangement for this small island in a small kitchen is shown here.

I can only post a few images per post, so in the next post or two, I will show its parts and ask a few questions.

UpNorth 11-04-2010 11:16 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Here a couple views with countertop, range, and corbels removed.

A pair of 12" base cabinets and a 12-deep cab with some kind of wine-bottle racking is schemed up here, along with some door-style panels, and some stile-and-rail backups for two of the panel arrangements. One of the base cabs, the one with a visible side, has its side decorated with an applied door panel.

I show extended stiles on the no-toekick wine box, that butt to the backs of the backer frames for the panels.

Not shown in these views, but likely to be there, is some pine framing, in an arrangement to brace and fix all parts in relative position to one another. Temp braces will go between the cab boxes to fix the opening for the range, while the c'top gets templated and then built and installed, then the temps come out and the range goes in. A laminate top, Formica or something, is planned.

UpNorth 11-04-2010 11:34 AM

2 Attachment(s)
A detail I wonder about, is the joints where panel-backer-frames come to the 12-wide basecabs. See the pics shown here.

In both instances of this, a stile end is bevel-ripped at the appropriate tilt, so the corner joint makeup is done.

The idea here is to buy all parts as part of the kitchen package, the rest of which can all be furnished by one of the brand-named houses. Think KraftMaid, Merrillat, etc.

Questions:

1. What about these corner joints? Is there a better way?

2. What kind of side-panel spec should be called out for the left 12" base, the one that needs to get that frame stile joined to its back edge?

3. Is it going to be easy to get the 12-deep wine box we need for this, no toe kick, heavy top stile, wide extended stiles?

4. I presume that getting the prefinished solid stock for the stile-rail panel backers will be easy. Right?

5. I also presume that getting the shaker-style panels, made to the right sizes, will be easy. Right?

thom 11-04-2010 11:35 AM

Generally, I am not a fan of ranges in an island. Anytime you move the range from against a wall to an area where the space above the range is open on all sides you add difficulty, and oftentimes a lot of difficulty, in removing smoke, grease, and smells. The exhaust fan must be upsized substantially and even so, any drafts through the area from open windows/doors or even the HVAC system will tend to divert the smoke and smells from the vent into the room.

Morning Wood 11-04-2010 11:36 AM

I would be really wary of relying on stock cabinets and their shear strength for that application. something like that I would do custom. Not to mention screwing stiffners and braces to stock cabinets can be a pain due to particle board and cheap construction.

tcleve4911 11-04-2010 01:04 PM

One idea for attaching them all together is to "Sandwich" them between 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood.

Since your boxes are drawn overhanging the toe kick, remove all the kicks and screw the plywood to the bottom and tops of the cabinets.

Build a 4" platform for the plywood sandwich to sit on and you've got your toe kick.
Trim the edge of the upper plywood with a matching molding and then cut out the range pocket.

The countertop will be plenty sturdy with lots of points of attachment.

Final benefit...If you want some overhangs, let your plywood top extend out to support the overhanging countertop.

Just one option

Kgmz 11-04-2010 01:43 PM

Also not a fan of a range, cooktop, etc in a island for all the same reasons Thom has mentioned. But with the layout you have there, at least there is room for some serious downdraft ventilation behind the range.

Small islands should be food prep areas with a vegetable sink, etc. You can still have a bar there for people to sit while you are preparing and cutting up things. And would be a lot nicer than sitting there while someone is cooking, I would hate to be splattered, etc.


The other thing is a slide-in range is a bad idea in a island as it never looks finished. At least with a drop-in the top will sit tight to the counter all the way around. And better yet would be just a cooktop with a wall oven somewhere else, and having a place for the pots and pans right under the cooktop.

greg24k 11-04-2010 01:55 PM

If the island you showing done in scale and that is the layout...you cannot put a range in there...there is not enough room and you will create a major safety hazard and there is no way that will pass inspection...

UpNorth 11-04-2010 02:53 PM

Why won't it pass inspection?

We have no inspection, but I am curious. What code language applies, here, that prohibits cooking in an island with this configuration?

I have built and installed a number of kitchens, including those with ranges, ovens, and cooktops in the islands. Some have had venting and some have not. We've done downdrafts as well as island chimneys. This little thing goes in a vacation cottage that gets light use of the kitchen for up to one warm-weather month per year, and it is for someone who has been making out just fine with a cramped electric cooktop in a corner, and no ventilation. Anything that smokes gets done outside on the grille.

tcleve4911 11-04-2010 03:14 PM

Relax...It'll pass

The homeowner will come in, look at it, ooh and ahh over it and she will love it.



There!!! It passed her inspection.....simple.

UpNorth 11-04-2010 03:23 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Relax...It'll pass

The homeowner will come in, look at it, ooh and ahh over it and she will love it.




There!!! It passed her inspection.....simple.

Thanks. Very helpful. What would we do without pros like you to provide answers?

Here's one snipped from the website of one of the nationwide players in cabinets. Please critique it and how your code official might pass or fail it.

greg24k 11-04-2010 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpNorth (Post 1041089)
Why won't it pass inspection?

We have no inspection, but I am curious. What code language applies, here, that prohibits cooking in an island with this configuration?

I have built and installed a number of kitchens, including those with ranges, ovens, and cooktops in the islands. Some have had venting and some have not. We've done downdrafts as well as island chimneys. This little thing goes in a vacation cottage that gets light use of the kitchen for up to one warm-weather month per year, and it is for someone who has been making out just fine with a cramped electric cooktop in a corner, and no ventilation. Anything that smokes gets done outside on the grille.

The corner of the stove seems to close to the edge on the back side. Someone could get hurt while something on the stove is cooking.

UpNorth 11-04-2010 07:00 PM

And what is that distance, per your code?

tcleve4911 11-04-2010 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpNorth (Post 1041100)
Thanks. Very helpful. What would we do without pros like you to provide answers?

I hope that wasn't directed at me because I was addressing Greg's nonsense code comment.

You're up North where common sense still prevails.

He's in the out-of-control city where they are still trying to regulate common sense with codes and rules.








...to quote Ben Franklin "one cannot govern common sense"

Jimmy Cabinet 11-04-2010 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UpNorth (Post 1041018)
A detail I wonder about, is the joints where panel-backer-frames come to the 12-wide basecabs. See the pics shown here.

In both instances of this, a stile end is bevel-ripped at the appropriate tilt, so the corner joint makeup is done.

The idea here is to buy all parts as part of the kitchen package, the rest of which can all be furnished by one of the brand-named houses. Think KraftMaid, Merrillat, etc.

Questions:

1. What about these corner joints? Is there a better way?

2. What kind of side-panel spec should be called out for the left 12" base, the one that needs to get that frame stile joined to its back edge?

3. Is it going to be easy to get the 12-deep wine box we need for this, no toe kick, heavy top stile, wide extended stiles?

4. I presume that getting the prefinished solid stock for the stile-rail panel backers will be easy. Right?

5. I also presume that getting the shaker-style panels, made to the right sizes, will be easy. Right?

I am struggling to figure out what you are asking yet there are several answers which don't seem to answer your question and you said nothing so maybe everyone is right and I'm just confused.

First off why would you promise a crazy shape island to a customer unless the kitchen walls were that shape? That is a doable shape but crazy. Why would you propose such a high degree of difficulty? The suggestions of boxes from major manufacturers not being strong enough or that the range won't fit is not an issue. I've heard those words before all too often.

Your extended stiles are an option from some brands but you mentioned Merillat and Kraftmaid which I happen to have the spec books in my hand right now. They are not available. I know they are available on Debut/Legacy but I just tossed that trash out of my showroom before they close their doors forever. Yes Legacy is closing shop.

You will have to use fillers to extend your ends. Merillat and Kraftmaid both have a wall wine rack by the style your pic shows. I have not sold one in 29 years as the lattice is the preferred wine cabinet. It is in the book though as a wall cabinet.

Those strange corner joints are normally covered with an OCM (outside corner mold) and you can also get a 22 degree OCM for that one. Your door blanks can not be any size you wish. They will be standard sized for your 3" incriminate box sizes. You will have to buy 3 equal standard sizes and place them equally. Normally this can be done with an inch or less between door blanks. Your sure don't want them to touch. Try to achieve the spacing that the kitchen has. And all shaker door styles I know are full overlay with little or quarter inch space between doors. Our catalogs have doors only sizes so you can figure it out easiy

I think you are asking about a side door blank for the B12 side. Just order a door only (door blank) for a W2430 or a B24 FHD (full height door) and this door blank you will just glue and staple on the side. It's that simple.

Your back is only sold as stile/rail with door panels as one piece on the very highest priced brand of cabinets. We frame these false backs with 2x2s or whatever scrap we have. We buy FHP (full height panel) which is quarter inch skin in the same color/wood species as the cabinets ordered. We place the panel then glue and pin nail the door blanks. Then cap the ends with OCM.

On this crazy island shape I would only do a toe kick on the stove side and/or food prep side. The rest I would do a FTB (furniture toe base) which dresses up the island nicely. When using FTB I really wish the CT to overhang a minimum of 6" so that people's toes don't hit that base.

Any more questions just ask....

PrestigeR&D 11-04-2010 09:25 PM

just wondering....
 
are you stuck with the design?????
as far as your corners question.. looks ok to me.. your stiles.. ok... if you want my honest opinion... I don't care for the layout ...nothing personal... have you considered centering the oven and throwing in 2 RE/LE cabs at the ends and then fill in the behind the oven with the wine rack....?????? JMPO .... just seems to cramped to me on the one side and out of balance to me...

hope all goes well with what ever your doing.:thumbsup: but you may want to re-evaluate the layout...;)

B.

UpNorth 11-05-2010 01:23 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Actually, the design looked a little better than whatever alternatives we did earlier, and I cannot remember those too well.

Kitchen plan view below. The walls are fixed, as is the sink location. In the plan, the wall to the R of the DW has a big concentrated load from floor and roof coming through a tripled-up stud, right at the wall's end adjacent the countertop front, so we cannot change that. Across the top of the plan, adjacent island long paneled side and wall adjacent fridge, is a hallway with stairway access, that we cannot infringe any further.

We wanted the larger area for the work triangle so that the fridge had an easier access, and we tilted the range so that someone seated at the counter at the L end could chat with the cook almost face to face.

A quest for symmetry made me do the range flanked by the two 12w basecabs. Am thinking now to make the R base (C03) a narrow one, just wide enough for a rollout spice rack, then move the range R to adjust, and make the L base (C02) wider, two shallow equal drawers atop a bottom deep drawer.

This makes that back range corner have more countertop space between it and the back edge.

A local dealer with multiple lines (KraftMaid, Merrillat, etc.) is advising me of my options.

greg24k 11-05-2010 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcleve4911 (Post 1041429)
I hope that wasn't directed at me because I was addressing Greg's nonsense code comment.

You're up North where common sense still prevails.

He's in the out-of-control city where they are still trying to regulate common sense with codes and rules.

...to quote Ben Franklin "one cannot govern common sense"

You right TC, only it wasn't none-sense, it was common sense...and you right, down there in the boonies you can do anything, nobody cares untill someone gets hurt, then guess who they come looking for :laughing:

UpNorth 11-05-2010 04:44 PM

Down where, Greg?

Good luck with your little remodeling business. If I though you could quote me the code language my design offends, I would ask, but that seems to be a waste of time. You insist on being a know it all.

greg24k 11-05-2010 05:37 PM

I think you must have 8" or 10" when it comes to a free standing stove from inside corner of the range to the nearest edge of the counter if there is a walking path or sitting area behind it...If not there should be a knee wall behind it, extending 4" or 6" above the stove surface.

By looking at the first picture you showed one corner seemed to be a little close to the edge.

When you showed the whole kitchen layout, it seems you have enough room.


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