Palladium ................. - Architecture & Design - Contractor Talk

Palladium .................

 
 
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:21 PM  
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Question

Palladium .................


I'm contemplating on reproducing the palladium 39F design,....




Something about this design has me intrigued ...

What I would love to know is what is going inside the chamber.......

The 39's have 3 - 9" woofers ,...1 - 4.5" Horn and 1 - .75 titanium head tweeter in each cabinet. If I decide to build these they are going to be slightly larger than the 39's. I would like to move these up to 10" drivers, keep the horn and tweeter. There are 3 "breather" fire-ports jutting out the side of the lower left/right end (respectfully) out of the side of each cabinet.




It's rather interesting (the audio world) .......,

I bought my klipsch 5.5 brand new back in 93 - $1489.43 (I have the brochure, sales receipt and literature filed away) . Replacement drivers are $79.00 a piece x (4) and the tweeter (plus the horn fixture- if damaged) $127.00 x 2 with the updated titanium heads for a complete set.

Point being........you can see where all the fat is in that price tag......


In the palladium design , I would like to chop the top from the straight planed 22.5 angle they have and instead arch it down into the spine of the cabinet to give it some additional character.

So ,
With all that being said,,

What the hell is going on inside the palladium ....
Box cabinets are fairly easy to duplicate ,...some..not so...

Example

Kef Q900's don't fallow these assumption rules......there is a separation inside - some ABR (KEF's fancy word for passive radiators )..........my definition of PR's - lacking emotion,,,,,,
I guess we can all put fancy words on items that all do the same thing,,,,,...

They are a very nice speaker but,.....they always want to emphasize the dual mid /tweet driver..........I think that's there selling point. I do like the base system for them,,,"fingers",,,,nice speaker , nice sound,,,,but something is missing,,,,,,,,,,IMO.......

Anyways,...the KEF Q900,...
They use a separation panel in the cabinet because of the ABR's. A design /functional sound engineering design. Klipsch seams to "walk away" from PR's , and I have to agree with their philosophy ,Passive radiators lack punch IMO, sound wise. Not that they haven't dabbled in them but they never give the same results in a live driver IMO.


I would love to find the prints on the 39's , but I doubt I will find those...

And I don't know anyone that has a pair of these yet so I am just trying to wrap my head around what is going on inside the 39's . I am hopping its nothing more than empty space and some baffling..,,,,


Any thoughts, suggestions,,,(about the cabinet design) what you think is going on inside ,,,,,


Here are the specs,,,, http://www.klipsch.com/p-39f-floorst...peaker/details
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:33 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


All the best speakers have separation panels for bass, mid, and tweeters, not between every driver. Don't use passive radiators they make for slow weak bass.

Inside good speakers there is an mdf re-enforcement like this:



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Old 04-09-2014, 10:12 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


That's what I thought ....

Thanks Inner,


I saw that in the manual for the 39F ......the question is,,,,what is the diameter of the openings they show.. (Dividers).....how crucial is that....

Isn't their some formula for cubic inch space based on woofer driver size, baffles, sectional dividers,,,,,etc, etc,,,,

That's my problem,....

I work with wood, .....
I'm no sound engineer,,,,

Should I just base my specs off of their manual cut away preview of what's going on inside,,,,,,

I want to take the front top and stretch it down (per say) to the spine, arched down in the back.

So I am loosing some space, so maybe that is going to be a problem....maybe not....I don't know.

Just kills me,...
Medium density board construction.............$20,000......

,But maybe it's part of the sound design.......what do I know.....I manipulate wood fibers,,,,,


My thinking was to make the shell 3/4 hard wood staved construction, then shaped.......is hard wood bad for a speaker enclosure....


Thanks for your input...
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Old 04-10-2014, 07:16 AM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Seriously sexy speakers!!
Hardwoods aren't a problem, but I think its easier to come up with beautiful veneers to laminate onto an MDF box.
Nice thing about MDF is all the mass and weight helps with resonance.

I hang out at a couple speaker and Home Theater forums.
There are some seriously talented guys there who are really helpful.
I'm going to venture a guess based on what I've read there that box volume and a crossover design are pretty critical to performance.
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Old 04-10-2014, 07:18 AM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Shame you are so far away, I could do all the inner structure for you on the CNC.

I built 9 speakers and 2 subs for my HT based on designs I found online...
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Old 04-10-2014, 04:33 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


It's not the building - design issue I am stumbling on. It is the engineering of sound for speakers that I am lacking,. I remember 20 or so years ago I was at the library rifling through speaker cabinet designs books and the formulas behind them.
I was thinking of building my own .....I got so frustrated that I went out and purchased the Klipsch 5.5's.

It's Nutz what some speakers go for.......

http://most-expensive.com/speakers

This is where art meets sound IMO.....and that's what your paying for,,,,,,



$12,000,00 cables.......

And they say they can tell the difference,,,,,,,,,..



I would love to stick them in a room, give them 3 examples (lines) and have them tell me which one is $12,000.00,,,,,,,

Morons.....


But,......if buying $12,000.00 cables makes you feel superior- nock your socks off,,,,,

JMPOV,

Thanks for the input....and the offer to help....
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:02 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeR&D View Post
That's what I thought ....
There is a formula but it's a function of the type of driver, the crossover freequency and whether you are using a ported or sealed enclosure. Not exactly simple but there are some ball park calculators online but most are for subs only.

The Palladium isn't a brilliant speaker, horn loaded tweeters beam like crazy unless your throat is perfectly sized, and by nature the distribution pattern is too narrow for stereo.

MDF and HDF makes a great speaker cabinet because it's dense, solid and dead sounding, just use t-nuts for the drivers. I'm sure hard wood would be great just more difficult to work with and more expensive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeR&D View Post
It's not the building - design issue I am stumbling on. It is the engineering of sound for speakers that I am lacking,.
JMPOV,

Thanks for the input....and the offer to help....
Agreed, the super exotic speakers don't necessarily sound good. Best speakers I ever heard were B&W 802Ds, the JBL Everest was a close second but it wasn't in a good room so I didn't get a good means of comparison.
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Old 04-10-2014, 06:27 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


It's amazing what some people do with their money......little Nutz IMO , ......

Grab some popcorn- your going to love this.......




http://youtu.be/WZHjRe-hm_s
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Old 04-10-2014, 07:51 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeR&D View Post
It's amazing what some people do with their money......little Nutz IMO , ......

Grab some popcorn- your going to love this.......



http://youtu.be/WZHjRe-hm_s
Not really, he has a system you masturbate too with your deaf audiophile friends, not a system that is sonically pure.
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:10 AM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Had a fella who worked for a major player in the local Home Theater arena tell me that given his choice, he'd rather see mediocre speakers in a good acoustically treated space than mega buck speakers in a room with no treatment.
Having done a few with and without treatment, I think I would agree with his opinion.
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Re: Palladium .................


Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteBasements View Post
Had a fella who worked for a major player in the local Home Theater arena tell me that given his choice, he'd rather see mediocre speakers in a good acoustically treated space than mega buck speakers in a room with no treatment.
Having done a few with and without treatment, I think I would agree with his opinion.
Blanket statement, but room dimensions play such a large roll and often changing those is beyond the realm of reality.
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:13 AM  
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Re: Palladium .................


I'm sorry and I don't mean to sound harsh , but some of these people allow themselves to get sucked into "the more you spend $ the better the results".......now that may be true- up to a point, but I am not renovating my house around my audio equipment. .......

I realize that with anything audio there is a differnce in the quality but spending $200.000.00 for speakers and then another $10,000 for cables , and let's not forget the bibs for the connections and the risers to keep them off the floor and properly aligned is a little to much more for me...


It verges on insanity IMO , .....


The other aspect of all this is "where is it being set up"... that link I put up , the gentleman had the house built around the audio room. Reminds me of that Moen commercial where the lady shows the architect a faucet and says "can you build it around this"........

I realize everyone has their own way,....

I can see speakers becoming expensive do to them turning into artwork....because it's not the drivers that are ramping that up IMO .



This palladium design is something I like, definitely doable and I want to have some fun with it but keep them within the proper peramiters for functionality. I'll jump in the audio forum and see what the guys with calculators in their head come up with......


This arena is truly a little "to much to swallow " for me,,,,,,

$25,000 for an amp - and I need 2 of them to get stereo...

Nutz......
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:55 AM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrestigeR&D View Post
I'm sorry and I don't mean to sound harsh , but some of these people allow themselves to get sucked into "the more you spend $ the better the results".......now that may be true- up to a point, but I am not renovating my house around my audio equipment. .......

I realize that with anything audio there is a differnce in the quality but spending $200.000.00 for speakers and then another $10,000 for cables , and let's not forget the bibs for the connections and the risers to keep them off the floor and properly aligned is a little to much more for me...


It verges on insanity IMO , .....


The other aspect of all this is "where is it being set up"... that link I put up , the gentleman had the house built around the audio room. Reminds me of that Moen commercial where the lady shows the architect a faucet and says "can you build it around this"........

I realize everyone has their own way,....

I can see speakers becoming expensive do to them turning into artwork....because it's not the drivers that are ramping that up IMO .



This palladium design is something I like, definitely doable and I want to have some fun with it but keep them within the proper peramiters for functionality. I'll jump in the audio forum and see what the guys with calculators in their head come up with......


This arena is truly a little "to much to swallow " for me,,,,,,

$25,000 for an amp - and I need 2 of them to get stereo...

Nutz......
Ultra high end audio is mostly bull****. At my old job I had a client who bought a pair of Grand Utopia speakers, 4 Krell monos and 18K of goretz silver speaker wire.

Still didn't sound as good as the 802s with a Classe stereo amp but had a lot more punch.

In terms of audio the newer speakers blow away the older technology.

If you want good sound look at who has the best research facilities. JBL was the first company to use laser interferometry to test the distortion of their drivers and they are one of the only companies that has an anechoic chamber large enough to test low freequencies.

If I were to build a speaker I'd choose something that I know sounds great and wouldn't be that hard to copy the design of. Maybe the B&W 700 Series would be a good choice. Out of the box it was one of the best imaging speakers I'd heard.

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Old 04-11-2014, 08:57 AM  
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Re: Palladium .................


I dabbled in this in high school, so like everything I learned then, I've forgotten almost all of it.

My greatest achievement was far away from what you are attempting. My goal was to make something much better in every way than the terrible, terrible Bose (better perceived sound through marketing) sub that people shell out way too much money for, and I succeeded. Smaller, cheaper, louder, lower, much tighter, and better looking, though heavier.

A few generalizations I remember that may or may not be accurate: for the mids and highs, the primary purpose of the enclosure is to block as close to 100% of the sound coming from the rear of the drivers as possible.

For the base, it's basically the same: ridgid, deadened, flex-free boxes are important. A port or pr can extend and flatten the low end frequency response, and there are formulas for tuning these based on specs that will be published about the drivers. The holes in the bracing should be generally designed to not restrict the flow of air inside the box so they don't create whistling and so they don't contribute to tuning (ie restricting or augmenting the movement of the driver by creating a resinent frequency)

You can find the math online. There are also plenty of books on the subject.
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Old 04-11-2014, 04:39 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


I don't have the brain for that.......I am just being blatantly honest with you, nor the patience ....that crap would put me in the nut house, for sure,,,,,guaranteed. ...........


I often find myself questioning this extremely high priced audio equipment.

I remember going into the "Speaker Shop" ( http://www.speakershop.com ) and Eddy showing me a tube amp that was around $7000.00. So he fires up this amp - they were hooked up up to the Klipsh KSP-400 in the burgundy tone finish - http://www.klipsch.com/ksp-400-floor...peaker/details $$3900 list price.

Then I ask him if he could hook up this adcom receiver/amp I was interested in up to them....


He says,...oh no......we have these systems all set up proprietary " to what we feel" is best suited considering the audio equipment.........

Ok.....I think I know what's going on here.....



When I purchased my new receiver recently...the Onkyo TX-NR709...I got the same response ...."We can't switch the system based on proprietary ,...bla,bla,bla..............

Sounded good on some small book shelf (2' high, 5" woofer, tweeter)


I gambled......


I have to say this much (IMO) - for a receiver that was $799.00 and I paid $399.00 "demo" . I am happy with the sound- very clean, crisp and am impressed. I don't Want to shove 1200 watts through my house.......... don't get me wrong- I like to jack it up - but within reason.......maybe I'm getting old..

It just sounds so much better, even at 80% of the way to full throttle . I have 110 watts (per channel) to throw out to 10 more speakers.........unfortunately (for the unit) I don't want to go that direction. I would just like to add 1 more set (4 speakers in total).

This is why this topic came up.......


I like curves (anti- Darwin Martin ),the irony........

Hardwood,.....expensive.......

I am confident for $3000.00 (materials) I can do this. This might be one of those "F/ck it" momenta and I will spec what information I have and just go with it.......

I can take the ratings from the speakers, might even be able to dig a little and find out what the crossover is ......"Bob Crites".....I just got my titanium tweeted heads from him for my 5.5's. He builds crossovers for almost every klipsch speaker that's out there. If anyone would know it's - going to be him.

This hobbie , (obsession to some...) is a little nutty if you ask me,....


Cable holding stands, bibs,......$12,000.00.....



Thank god it's Friday........I need a drink....
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:15 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Why Klipsch? Sure they are really efficient...but not my style.
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:55 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Stop pissing on my parade Inner.......Buzz Kill.......just kidding..........my last joke episode backfired so I am just making sure where all on the same page....

The bass that comes out of those 5.5's is incredible. ....that's what I liked,,,,you can feel it.......very clean....98d / 1 watt.....whatever that means.....

It's not just drivers......IMO,....


This is where that CI calculation comes in.......cabinet design. I am not saying that drivers and crossovers don't have anything to do with it. IMO , yes....up to a point,,,,,


6- 10" woofers, 2 horn, and 2 tweeter....+ the crossover- matched, I think 12-$1,500.00 will cover that end., with room to spare,,,,,,


It's that dam CI and driver situation,,,,,,,,, I think space comes first- then drivers & crossover,,,,,,,but what do I know-and that's the truth....
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:50 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Do you need to source the drivers still?
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:55 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


Inner,
Any help would be appreciated.....


Thank you,...
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:00 PM  
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Re: Palladium .................


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Inner,
Any help would be appreciated.....

Thank you,...
I know the Canadian rep, I'll send him an email, but sadly Klipsch parts are painfully expensive from the experience I've had.

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