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Construction Math For Dummies

 
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:59 AM   #61
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Great work as usual!



On the left, it looks like you are setting and bracing corner studs. Are you taking a chalk line corner to corner, and using that to stand studs to mark in place, or did you come up with a calculated cut list? Or maybe something different?


I decided to set posts for the outside corners, inside corners, and wall intersections along the radiuses first.

Left them long, will trim later.

Had the architects generate the heights at outside of framing plane at those key points.

Then....we just lay out everything meticulously on the deck.
Pull back from each corner to the generated height (minus plates), snap for underside of top plate, pull layout points for everything off of adjacent perpendicular walls, pull numbers for stud lengths off of the edge of the deck....etc...etc.
Snap everything but studs and cripples with Tajima ink lines.
Kings, posts, headers...
(One blown number isn’t immediately apparent on this one....so it’s nice to have it all laid out.)

After the cut packages are done, it’s fairly standard.
Build em on the deck, stand em up, slip them in between the posts.

The day we started the walls I was worried it was going to take forever, but now that we have a system down and found our rhythm, we are cruising.




The next hurdle is framing the radius walls.

The stud lengths are easy enough.
The architects sent the Rhino files of the 3D modeled framing plan to us.
I downloaded a free student version, played with it a bit, and we can get all the numbers from there.

I’m just struggling to figure out how to do the top plates.
They are a radius, that is also descending on a slope.



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Old 06-29-2019, 09:42 AM   #62
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


I think you're going to be stuck steam bending. A series of posts in the ground that gives you the right curve when it cools. That would be trial pieces to get it dialed in.

It would be easier if it was built up out of the same 3/8" plywood.

Getting the curve calculated isn't bad, it's an ellipse segment with two straight end pieces.
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Old 06-29-2019, 12:48 PM   #63
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
I think you're going to be stuck steam bending. A series of posts in the ground that gives you the right curve when it cools. That would be trial pieces to get it dialed in.

It would be easier if it was built up out of the same 3/8" plywood.

Getting the curve calculated isn't bad, it's an ellipse segment with two straight end pieces.
Too time consuming.
I'm chasing the framing budget as it is.
(Excavation went way (WAY) over my estimate.
Partially because I underestimated it, mostly because the site conditions were so drastically different than the drawings.)

I need a more efficient method.
I'm thinking of laminating in place.
As long as the slope isn't too steep at each location, I think I can do it in 1/2" CDX.

Loads won't really be a factor on those top plates.
I'll just insert studs directly under the rafters after their locations are laid out.

The saving grace of this whole thing as far as the exterior framing plane is concerned......5" of EIFS.
EIFS can hide a lot of things.
Even using the Total Station, the foundation guys weren't dead on exact with their walls. IMO....they did as good as anyone could have.

It was a bear to lay this thing out, even after the foundation was in.
125' of masons twine moves in the slightest breeze....no matter how tight you pull it, and running precise Pythagoreans off two strings is never as perfect as I'd like.
We essentially threw the sill plates onto the foundation walls, got the floor system in......and then laid it out with extreme precision once the deck was on and we had something stable to lay out on top of.
I have a couple spots where the rim is in or out by as much as 1/2".
I try not to let it bother me. (EIFS.....)
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Old 06-29-2019, 02:38 PM   #64
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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Too time consuming.
I'm chasing the framing budget as it is.
(Excavation went way (WAY) over my estimate.
Partially because I underestimated it, mostly because the site conditions were so drastically different than the drawings.)
Watched your videos, that dig would have gone over any estimate I would have come up with also. That's a fairly complicated hole in the ground.

I was thinking laminated top plates might be the best way to get the curves you need, but even that won't be easy due to the sloping walls.

You sure did take on a challenging project, I can't wait for more progress pics.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:16 PM   #65
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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Originally Posted by tgeb View Post
Watched your videos, that dig would have gone over any estimate I would have come up with also. That's a fairly complicated hole in the ground.



I was thinking laminated top plates might be the best way to get the curves you need, but even that won't be easy due to the sloping walls.



You sure did take on a challenging project, I can't wait for more progress pics.


You have no idea how many times I wanted to call you.

I had to learn a lot about excavating....real quick.

I rented a backhoe thinking I would just need to scratch a little dirt for the footers and remove a few trees from the driveway.

How wrong I was!
And...how much I didn’t realize about the limitations of a backhoe.
I felt like that thing was going to roll over every time I drove over a rock on that original grade....and it wasn’t that steep.
I quickly found out, they do a lot of things, but not a lot of things well.

I think I ended up digging something like 200-something truck loads after all was said and done.

I can run that Cat fairly well (well enough)....but had to figure out so much the process of “excavation”.

Couldn’t find a track loader to rent, but one of my lead guys became really proficient on the Bobcat very quickly.

I dug and slung dirt.....he moved it.
Seven days a week, 14 hours a day, for a couple weeks.....just to try to keep the rental costs down.

The one silver lining of the whole dig....
We only hit one small vein of rock, right where my culvert needed to go at the mouth of the driveway.
In ROCKbridge County.
That is simply miraculous. Unheard of around here.
The guy I usually use for my excavating brought his sweet new Hitachi over with the rock hammer and only charged me $100 an hour to use it myself.
(Again...I was shocked ...at how long it took to break such a small amount of rock.)
It was like going from a ‘97 Buick Skylark to a new Lexus though.

He needs a bunch of clean fill (which I have) for a road he has to build.
I’m negotiating for barter.
I’m hoping to get him to finish up the rough grading as he removes it, and then maybe spread my topsoil ....and seed and straw.

But I really don’t know what value my fill has ....since he will be doing all the loading and trucking, I’m thinking not that much.




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Old 06-29-2019, 06:39 PM   #66
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


Nail lam, glue lam or a combination. It's going to take some serious time to get it built up to 3 inches like a double top.....

Some time you'll have to tell about taking the hill top off.

FWIW, one if the local heavy equipment operators rolled a backhoe down a hill when he was 7 yo. They get tippy.
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Old 06-29-2019, 06:58 PM   #67
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


Any projects needing fill that's relatively close to you?

Around here, if the guy's pit is close to you, you might get it hauled for free if he needs to keep his guys busy.
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Old 06-30-2019, 06:32 AM   #68
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


You should have called me, I could have taken off and helped out for a long weekend or a couple of days.

And yeah, a backhoe is kinda top heavy and can scare the crap out of you on uneven terrain. I put 2 different backhoes on their sides when I was a youngster, helped me learn their limitations.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:03 PM   #69
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeGreen View Post
You have no idea how many times I wanted to call you.

I had to learn a lot about excavating....real quick.

I rented a backhoe thinking I would just need to scratch a little dirt for the footers and remove a few trees from the driveway.

How wrong I was!
And...how much I didn’t realize about the limitations of a backhoe.
I felt like that thing was going to roll over every time I drove over a rock on that original grade....and it wasn’t that steep.
I quickly found out, they do a lot of things, but not a lot of things well.

I think I ended up digging something like 200-something truck loads after all was said and done.

I can run that Cat fairly well (well enough)....but had to figure out so much the process of “excavation”.

Couldn’t find a track loader to rent, but one of my lead guys became really proficient on the Bobcat very quickly.

I dug and slung dirt.....he moved it.
Seven days a week, 14 hours a day, for a couple weeks.....just to try to keep the rental costs down.

The one silver lining of the whole dig....
We only hit one small vein of rock, right where my culvert needed to go at the mouth of the driveway.
In ROCKbridge County.
That is simply miraculous. Unheard of around here.
The guy I usually use for my excavating brought his sweet new Hitachi over with the rock hammer and only charged me $100 an hour to use it myself.
(Again...I was shocked ...at how long it took to break such a small amount of rock.)
It was like going from a ‘97 Buick Skylark to a new Lexus though.

He needs a bunch of clean fill (which I have) for a road he has to build.
I’m negotiating for barter.
I’m hoping to get him to finish up the rough grading as he removes it, and then maybe spread my topsoil ....and seed and straw.

But I really don’t know what value my fill has ....since he will be doing all the loading and trucking, I’m thinking not that much.




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Old 07-11-2019, 03:59 PM   #70
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies




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Old 07-11-2019, 04:00 PM   #71
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies




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Old 07-11-2019, 10:44 PM   #72
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


So today we ran into the intersection of computer aided design and practical construction methods.
(Certainly not the first instance, but one of the most confounding.)

I have been kind of taking this thing as it comes.
Figuring it out as we go along.


Walls are up (except the radius sections....I called an audible on those. No top plates whatsoever.), and we just set our first of the sets of ridge beams and started trying to frame the roof.

I realized a week ago after playing with the Rhinocerous 3-D models that we might have a speed bump ahead.

The architects modeled it based on center lines of rafters......without seat cuts......with the tips of the rafters landing 1 1/2 back from the outer framing plane to allow for a rim joist.
Tips....like spear tips....

Considering that the perimeter walls in the “pod” we started with run at either 56 degrees or 34 degrees to the ridges.....that didn’t work out so well.

The 56 demands a deep....beveled seat cut, while the 34 is much shallower....and at a different bevel; leaving the finished rafter tails at different heights (about 7/8’s different).
That would throw the roof plane way off.

After a bit off hair pulling, hand wringing, and architect cussing, we figured out the solution.

All the lengths must be calculate from the same face of the rafters. (We chose east)
Forget about taking all long points for efficiency.
Then, all rafters must be cut based on height above top plate from that point.
11 1/16” in the case of the first “pod”.....based on the longer of the two.
Thereby requiring an adjustment to the length of the seat cut on the shallower side.

We ended up with 1 9/16 bearing on our longest rafters of the 34 degree walls.

I also decided to blow off the roof framing rim joist.
Decided it adds unnecessary complexity.
(We may add blocking if we feel it is necessary.)

I’m 98% sure we have it licked.
But I’ve learned to be wary on this one.
The complex geometry just messes with your head.
We are never really sure of anything until we actually confirm in the field.

We threw up a couple test rafters on each wall based on the solution....
Dead 3/12
(which is not really my main concern....I was willing to accept a 2.98798/12 if necessary )
and perfectly in plane.

Now I just I have to refine the system for laying out and fabricating these freakish rafters to speed up the process.


(The last video was to try to show you guys what the geometry looks like from the ridge. )


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Old 07-25-2019, 10:00 PM   #73
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


Turns out it isn’t that simple.

The distance away from the ridge that a rafter lands on those sloped walls....changes the seat and the bevel slightly.

Nothing....about these rafters can be calculated exactly.

We have four different patterns for each “roof pod”
5 roof pods.
Parallel East and West.
Perpendicular North and South.
(....to the “gable” walls.)

It is taking FOREVER....
But by skim or shim.....the roof plane is dead on.


Add to all of this mayhem,

Ridges 16’ AFF...
(a couple....the rest are a comfortable 14’)
Radiused inside corners...
Ridge LVL’s that don’t brace properly when strung because everything is skewed and wants to rack with the slightest manipulation.
(Building on a slope....
Need room to drive the Lull...
Tired of climbing over bracing every 4 feet on the interior as we drag 12’ ladders and rafters around...and try to layout on the deck...)
Having to layout on the deck and transfer rafter layout to the walls because you can’t just pull 16’s on the sloped/skewed walls, and the factor for the separation on each slope is unique....
(Every “pod” is different.
Top plates vary from 5deg. to 11.5...
Ridge angles from 36deg. to 20.5 from “gable wall”....)
And....when the roof slope meets the “gable” walls on the shortest rafter....it ...bends....or shifts....just like the arched rafters become elliptical when they hit the same wall.....
(Depending on the length....it is no longer a 3/12. It meets the ridge at more like a 3.5/12 )
Up to 69.5 degree bevels on the plumbs....
(Seat cuts running at various degrees from the plumb cuts...with variable bevels.)

We have done everything to calculate this thing mathematically.....
But the disconnect in the modeling of the rafters has caused us to go 50/50.
A lot of fitting and field adjustments.

Let’s not even talk about those radiused inside corners.
I came up with an elegant (and efficient) solution for the first one, only to realize that it won’t work on about 3 of them....because no (zero) rafters fall on them.

We could have framed at least 3-4.....3,000 sq. ft. houses by now...and we aren’t 50% done yet.
(We are starting another custom in a few weeks....and we laugh about framing with one arm tied behind our backs just so it’s not such a shock to the system )


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Old 07-25-2019, 10:05 PM   #74
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


Why couldn't you of had a truss company figure all that out for you?


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Old 07-25-2019, 10:07 PM   #75
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


In other words :

Isn't there software for that?


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Old 07-25-2019, 10:14 PM   #76
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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Why couldn't you of had a truss company figure all that out for you?


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I guess there might be.

Except for one problem....
Im not sure trusses could not have accomplished the ceiling and roof plane.
(The ceilings are “curved” like the roof.
The roof cavity is thin.....all spray foam just to get to desired R. )

It’s a stick frame only design from what I can see.

But that’s a good question.

I don’t know enough to know.
But I don’t think it’s possible in trusses.

Andy.......?




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Old 07-25-2019, 10:20 PM   #77
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


I might have even looked at doing something like this.


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Old 07-25-2019, 10:22 PM   #78
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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In other words :

Isn't there software for that?


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These architects are fairly well known in the world of “architecture”. ....but mostly competition architects from what I can tell.

They win international prizes for stuff that never gets built (so it can defy standard building logic).

They are really great to work with, but I am quite sure they had no clue exactly how complex it would be when translated into actual construction techniques.

I remember telling them (and the client) at the first meeting a year ago...
“If anybody tells you that they know how long it will take to frame this thing, they are either lying, or a complete fool.”
I stand by that statement.
I knew it was going to be a bitch.
(And they said, “noooo....it’s just an arched rafter between the ridges........
it’s no big deal. )


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Old 07-25-2019, 10:23 PM   #79
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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I might have even looked at doing something like this.


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I wish.

Flat ceilings...

Doesn’t honor the ....art.




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Old 07-25-2019, 10:26 PM   #80
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Re: Construction Math For Dummies


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I might have even looked at doing something like this.


Mike.
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All those roof lines...
Are perpendicular to the gable walls.
That’s an effing cakewalk.

Go build a doghouse.
Skew the ridge at 36 deg. to the gables.
(Forget about the double ridges with arched rafters (that’s easy) and the radius inside corners))
It’s a mind f**k.


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