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Changing Engineers Mid-Project

 
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Old 04-12-2020, 09:44 AM   #1
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Changing Engineers Mid-Project


I'm currently in the process of building a house. I was issued permits based on one design, and after permit was issued, the client made substantial revisions to the plan which require almost completely new structural drawings. The original engineer I hired to the do job is refusing to revise the drawings as he states that we have to build according to permit set.

Has anyone ever got two structural engineers involved in a project? I have one on standby to issue revised drawings.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:16 AM   #2
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Around here, I've had to revise structural plans while under permit. I just had to submit the revised plans.

Maybe what you are talking about would be a big deal requiring repermiting. Tough to say, but plan revisiins aren't uncommon

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Old 04-12-2020, 10:19 AM   #3
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Around here, I've had to revise structural plans while under permit. I just had to submit the revised plans.

Maybe what you are talking about would be a big deal requiring repermiting. Tough to say, but plan revisiins aren't uncommon

It's not uncommon at all, which is what I don't get.

The changes are extremely different, footprint remains the same, building height is the same, top floor is just wider so it will change load points etc.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:25 AM   #4
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


BTW, you do have to build to the permit set, but that doesn't mean it has to be the original set. Your permitting official can answer whether a revised set would be acceptable or a whole new permit would be needed.

Get 2 engineers in this, and one us likely to be a problem. If you build to revised from the second engineer and the permit is using the original set, you will be busted at inspection. The engineer can't have you build it with their name in it.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:36 AM   #5
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


I'd be more worried about the changes this client is going to spring on you in the future.

I'd hammer him hard for these changes and if he balked, I'd walk.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:42 AM   #6
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
BTW, you do have to build to the permit set, but that doesn't mean it has to be the original set. Your permitting official can answer whether a revised set would be acceptable or a whole new permit would be needed.

Get 2 engineers in this, and one us likely to be a problem. If you build to revised from the second engineer and the permit is using the original set, you will be busted at inspection. The engineer can't have you build it with their name in it.
Yeah,
I would be running the new plan by the inspector prior to construction.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:44 AM   #7
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Top floor being wider could trigger more than just engineering. Egress, window area, and so on. If the building officials are good with having a revised plan set under the existing permit and your engineer won't do it, go with the other engineer.

It sounds like the guy thinks something shady may be going on.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:52 AM   #8
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Things get real messy bringing a second design professional in. Around here you have an engineer or architect of record who creates the plans and submits for permits.

I've run into these deals with major design changes midway into a project. It required a bunch of re-drawing and re-submitting to the authorities, but we never switched designers, just had our present designer make the revisions and pay him accordingly.

If you bring in a second designer and make a bunch of changes, I could see the first getting pissed off and wanting to walk away invalidating the permits. The drawings typically remain the property of that designer also, so somebody else can't legally modify his work. You would likely have to create a complete new set of plans and resubmit for permits with the second designer.

Unless the original designer is a problem, I think it would be foolish and more costly bringing in a second guy.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:53 AM   #9
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Heres the difference, this picture shows the top floor being in from the exterior walls of the floor below (main)

We want it so the top floor follows the same exterior footprint of the main floor. It would require adding about 7 feet to the top floor width.


Last edited by Frenchy93; 04-12-2020 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 04-12-2020, 01:58 PM   #10
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


I don't think the second guy can make changes to to the first guys without permission. There's copyright laws in place.


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Old 04-12-2020, 02:00 PM   #11
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy93 View Post
Heres the difference, this picture shows the top floor being in from the exterior walls of the floor below (main)

We want it so the top floor follows the same exterior footprint of the main floor. It would require adding about 7 feet to the top floor width.


That can change the whole dynamic of everything designed below it from the footings up.


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Old 04-12-2020, 02:09 PM   #12
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


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Originally Posted by Calidecks View Post
That can change the whole dynamic of everything designed below it from the footings up.


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For sure,
I know the way the footings are designed currently are big enough to take the load of a complete top floor, but still, I need it engineered.

I'll have to have a chat with him on Monday, worse come to worse I'll get it re-engineered from scratch.
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Old 04-13-2020, 01:44 AM   #13
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


In general, building permits serve two goals of the local government, It gets all large improvements to Real Estate Property ON THE TAX ROLLS, and forces builders to conform to minimum standards of construction....

Thus you are trying "sneak" a VERY large footage increase with out PAYING your permit fees that are based on value of building.

Will the note holder allow this criminal conspiracy to occur on it's property?

Didn't YOU charge for this Massive change order and INCREASE in materials and labor, Plus LOST TIME?

Why wouldn't an Engineer be required to engineer a a structure "that has MORE than 5 % change in loads? 7" Maybe, 7 Feet that is a NEW Plan silly man.

Haven't you PAID the 1st S.E.? Why NOT use him as least cost person to change plans with least added materials and RETURNED steel......

Changes are common, I smell a cheapskate 'Rat' that doesn't want to pay for Work performed, But Unused by a indecisive customer/ GC....

I can't see this as even a serious question by an experienced competent builder, I'm thinking, New Guy or a morally bent actor.....

Your Next building might require you to find a SE that hasn't heard about this home.....

I'm concerned that NO one has told you how far wrong you are within your local circle of contacts, Do you punish "bad news" bearers? Or just garden variety ignorance/inexperience?
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Old 04-13-2020, 06:29 AM   #14
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fouthgeneration View Post
In general, building permits serve two goals of the local government, It gets all large improvements to Real Estate Property ON THE TAX ROLLS, and forces builders to conform to minimum standards of construction....

Thus you are trying "sneak" a VERY large footage increase with out PAYING your permit fees that are based on value of building.

Will the note holder allow this criminal conspiracy to occur on it's property?

Didn't YOU charge for this Massive change order and INCREASE in materials and labor, Plus LOST TIME?

Why wouldn't an Engineer be required to engineer a a structure "that has MORE than 5 % change in loads? 7" Maybe, 7 Feet that is a NEW Plan silly man.<img src="http://img.contractortalk.com/smilies/jester.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Jester" class="inlineimg" />

Haven't you PAID the 1st S.E.? Why NOT use him as least cost person to change plans with least added materials and RETURNED steel......

Changes are common, I smell a cheapskate 'Rat' that doesn't want to pay for Work performed, But Unused by a indecisive customer/ GC....

I can't see this as even a serious question by an experienced competent builder, I'm thinking, New Guy or a morally bent actor.....

Your Next building might require you to find a SE that hasn't heard about this home.....

I'm concerned that NO one has told you how far wrong you are within your local circle of contacts, Do you punish "bad news" bearers? Or just garden variety ignorance/inexperience?
Relax brother.
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Old 04-13-2020, 07:14 AM   #15
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


haven't seen 4th gen around in a while

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Old 04-13-2020, 10:56 AM   #16
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


Why is the original guy refusing to redo it? Does he think you are not going to pay him, or does he think by redoing his work, he may think you may not want to pay his standard rate? I don't get it.
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:53 PM   #17
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


What is the big deal?

I have done revisions with a new structural designer. It is not usually a problem. The new design supersedes the original design. The original engineer therefor has no further interest in the project. He got paid and now has no future risk. Pretty cool for him.

Andy.
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Old 04-13-2020, 07:14 PM   #18
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


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Originally Posted by rescraft View Post
Why is the original guy refusing to redo it? Does he think you are not going to pay him, or does he think by redoing his work, he may think you may not want to pay his standard rate? I don't get it.
That seems to be the relevant question here... if you're willing to pay for the revisions, there should be no reason for him not to revise it... it would literally be like a new client, except half his work is already done...
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:13 PM   #19
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


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Originally Posted by Frenchy93 View Post
Relax brother.
Everyone here pretty much ignores "fouth".

Lot of hot air, not much content.





I'm not understanding why the original engineer or designer wouldn't revise it. My designers and engineers will redraw anything as long I'm willing to pay them to redo it. Easiest money ever.

Last edited by Seven-Delta-FortyOne; 04-13-2020 at 11:32 PM. Reason: Meant to say "wouldn't" revise it....
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Old 04-14-2020, 03:02 PM   #20
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Re: Changing Engineers Mid-Project


The Hard Rock Condo in New Orleans got to make changes in the as built plan with out getting stamped "new" Permits......


Permit fraud = TAX Fraud IMHO

Changes in build that don't add to final VALUE don't need permit changes IF THEY MEET THE CODE(s)

e.g. Does the 7 foot wider 2cd story push the roof peak over the common 35' residential limit in total height?........shading lawyer/ neighbors award winning garden.....

A lot of facts blowing in this Santa Anna....

New plans, new permit, + new Engineering review/Stamp = ADDED PROFITS in any fair contract between builder and Owner()s)......More Time = More $$$$$ How can this even be a post?

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Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 04-14-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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