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'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'

 
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:19 PM   #81
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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Originally Posted by EthanB
Why not? You can have a certified company do the testing and handle any remediation if you do want to work on an older building.
I think this is the route I'm going to take. The last job I did I had someone else do the remediation anyway. I've been certified for about three years and never done any of my own RRP work. Spending the Three hundred bucks just doesn't make since. I just hope it doesn't raise any red flags against me. Even though I won't be breaking any rules, I don't want them communicating with me whatsoever.
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:43 PM   #82
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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Originally Posted by Californiadecks View Post
I think this is the route I'm going to take. The last job I did I had someone else do the remediation anyway. I've been certified for about three years and never done any of my own RRP work. Spending the Three hundred bucks just doesn't make since. I just hope it doesn't raise any red flags against me. Even though I won't be breaking any rules, I don't want them communicating with me whatsoever.
Cali.... With that kinda attitude, we are not going to have enough money to compensate the RRP commision, nor fund their retirement program.... whoops typo:
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:03 PM   #83
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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I guarantee membership will be down at renewal because nobody's doing it anyway.

Been certified since day one and I've yet to see the plastic and signage they so valiantly sold us... I'm serious, I drive around daily seeing 1800's Victorian homes being gutted and resided and debris flying and laying all over the place.

It ain't fair to us honest contractors who inform the customers of the regs, and go on to lose the job anyway once the bids are submitted...nobody is friggin' doing it, so nobody is paying for it and it same as is ever was, same as it ever was...

I mean seriously, WTF kind of law is this anyway.

Exsqueeze me now whilst I go help my neighbor legally demo some old Dutch Boy white hot lead
superseal.I see it too. on Rittenhouse the most expensive houses in the city 1/mill + full gut jobs right out the window into the dumpsters chit just flying all over the street. The gc's that are doing these jobs only do mill + jobs It freaks me out. How do you not even get a kid out with a hose to to keep the dust down. I've been been in rittenhouse for the past 3-4 months and seen 3-total demo of 1800's massive 4-6000f brownstones getting full gut jobs and nothing. no plastic. no waring signs barley and side walk protectionů talk about wtf. I bet $100 they don't even have a clue about the laws. whatta joke. I follow it pretty closely because it helps with clean up and dust control in the work / live areas. I have a full cleaning kit swifters and chit. I feel like I went from being a dam good mechanic to a dam good cleaning service.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:44 AM   #84
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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Just seeing FStephenMasek's posts make me want to jump out of a window. I don't even need to read them and don't.
Head in the sand never worked for anybody. I've learned useful things from you-all and have tried to help you-all, but far too many of you think you are in charge. I'm not and you're not. Note that I was the only one on June 26 in DC standing up for the contractors with solid information on what is wrong with the regulation and how it puts good contractors in an impossible position. The best anybody else claiming to have any concern for contractors could muster was the weak argument that we have OSHA regulations, so don't need EPA regulations. We've had EPA and OSHA since they were created in the Nixon administration, and anybody realistic does not think they are going away anytime soon. I've advocated getting rid of seven cabinet departments, EPA and Labor (where OSHA resides) amongst them, and been a tea party protest marcher, but we've got a long way to go to cut government. Those who ignore lead just add fuel to the demand for regulations fire.

Am I correct to believe that this forum is mainly little contractors working on little projects? My company ended 2013 very busy and we have started 2014 very busy. We perform lead surveys every work day for commercial, industrial, redevelopment, school and other such projects. The contractors, developers, owners, and managers all consider lead surveys to be routine and would not think of conducting a project without one. Of course, we also provide other consulting services (asbestos, Phase I, PCA, mold, IAQ, etc.), and we are typical of environmental consulting companies.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:10 AM   #85
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


I understand your position fine and I believe your heart is in the right place with advice. Unfortunately you reinforced what I mentioned. The main problem with all of this, is that it only works in a "government spending" atmosphere with unions and site visits from OSHA. They are locked in stimulus and payback contracts, so the routine is protocols.

The residential market does not require homeowners to comply or pay for it. They can also do the work themselves. The residential market is flooded with unprofessional and dyers who will just as well save the money. So the business's of most small contractors didnt benefit from offering this special knowledge.

I never understood why these morons running the show didn't put the burden on the homeowner and their insurance company. After all they live there and do things everyday can disturbing the Lead paint.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:48 PM   #86
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


We consultants and contractors all need to push for requiring that owners have their buildings inspected. That is really just common sense, as the focus on lead-based paint would then shift to only those places where it actually exists.

A major part of the problem is that EPA, or more precisely all of the 20-something and 30-something contract employees who work there, believe their phony numbers shown that the cost of complying with RRP was trivial. lacking any real world experience, they also sis not stop to think that the owner, not the contractor is really in charge of what happens at the building, and many owners will go with the low bid.

There is no reason to coddle owners. Just add a sentence to contracts requiring the owners to provide proper asbestos and lead survey reports, and allowing the contractor to hire a consultant to produce them if they have not been provided, then anything found becomes a change order.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:27 PM   #87
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


I agree it's the responsibility of the owne .
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:21 PM   #88
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


Quote:
Originally Posted by FStephenMasek
We consultants and contractors all need to push for requiring that owners have their buildings inspected. That is really just common sense, as the focus on lead-based paint would then shift to only those places where it actually exists. A major part of the problem is that EPA, or more precisely all of the 20-something and 30-something contract employees who work there, believe their phony numbers shown that the cost of complying with RRP was trivial. lacking any real world experience, they also sis not stop to think that the owner, not the contractor is really in charge of what happens at the building, and many owners will go with the low bid. There is no reason to coddle owners. Just add a sentence to contracts requiring the owners to provide proper asbestos and lead survey reports, and allowing the contractor to hire a consultant to produce them if they have not been provided, then anything found becomes a change order.

Ugh no. Don't lump me in with the consultants who prosper from burdensome government regulation. I will never push for more regulation or rules, not even if it benefits you.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:28 PM   #89
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


I won't even push for more regulations even if it benefitted me.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:50 AM   #90
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


IMHO, this is all half assed. If you don't want lead in buildings, require it to be torn out of all buildings.

Lets look at the history again. HUD didn't want subsidized tenants to be exposed to lead. HUD can't regulate environmental issues, so they get together with the EPA to get the EPA to write regulations. EPA gets the studies done to establish expected exposure based on various activities. The EPA issues rules, but homeowners are excluded under the cover that the EPA can't regulate them because there is no interstate commerce involved. I say cover because the EPA could have included homeowners - they didn't because the regs would have been killed by public opinion.

Meanwhile, insurance companies have been jacking rates on old buildings due to some very costly law suits. The insurance companies writing policies for Maine didn't want to insure ANY old buildings at all - the governor at the time stepped in and told them if they didn't cover old buildings, they couldn't write policies in the state at all. Many old multifamilies in Maine that require commercial insurance (more than 4 units) now require buildings to be above current code in certain aspects.

Inspections are the absolute worst idea. They solve no basic problem at all, and the law as implemented doesn't solve the problem it's supposed to solve, either.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:00 AM   #91
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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IMHO, this is all half assed. If you don't want lead in buildings, require it to be torn out of all buildings.

Lets look at the history again. HUD didn't want subsidized tenants to be exposed to lead. HUD can't regulate environmental issues, so they get together with the EPA to get the EPA to write regulations. EPA gets the studies done to establish expected exposure based on various activities. The EPA issues rules, but homeowners are excluded under the cover that the EPA can't regulate them because there is no interstate commerce involved. I say cover because the EPA could have included homeowners - they didn't because the regs would have been killed by public opinion.

Meanwhile, insurance companies have been jacking rates on old buildings due to some very costly law suits. The insurance companies writing policies for Maine didn't want to insure ANY old buildings at all - the governor at the time stepped in and told them if they didn't cover old buildings, they couldn't write policies in the state at all. Many old multifamilies in Maine that require commercial insurance (more than 4 units) now require buildings to be above current code in certain aspects.

Inspections are the absolute worst idea. They solve no basic problem at all, and the law as implemented doesn't solve the problem it's supposed to solve, either.
Good points. I would like to add a couple more.
1 Where does it say anywhere in rrp brochure or the rule itself?== "The contractor by following this rule will contain all the lead dust he/she created doing your job, and cannot be held responsible for any other past, present or future lead contamination."

2 If this rule is so protective, then why hasn't there been wide spread discounts for liability insurance from insurance companies to those contractors that are rrp certified?
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:33 AM   #92
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


To give credit where credit is due, Mazek has done some posts on this thread that help me understand how to work with a consultant in the most cost effective manner. Not that I agree with everything said in all posts, and I really do find RRP frustrating. The small repair costs can as much as triple, and take a long single day project into multiple days.

What makes sense to me for what I do is make it an extension of a "dustless" strategy, so the tool costs get amortized over more projects and work techniques can be refined and made more efficient.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:25 PM   #93
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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What makes sense to me for what I do is make it an extension of a "dustless" strategy, so the tool costs get amortized over more projects and work techniques can be refined and made more efficient.
That was my plan. That's why I took the class. But until the liability doesn't rest squarely on my shoulders, I don't have a whole lot of motivation to touch RRP work. I'd be more than happy to do do the work, if a) the paper work end of it couldn't put you out of business and b) the EPA was not the enforcement agency for the work.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:16 AM   #94
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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Ugh no. Don't lump me in with the consultants who prosper from burdensome government regulation.
The regulations existed before the consultants. Without those of us who are consultants, there would be no source of help. If you want to attack or be against somebody, let it be the Congress or others in government, not those who are helping. Yes we make money doing what we do, as do contractors, lawyers, doctors, actors, manufacturers, retailers, accountants, and anyone else in business offering a product or service people want and need. You can't push a string, and being against consultants, rather than joining with them, is worse yet, trying to push the wrong string.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:32 AM   #95
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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Originally Posted by FStephenMasek
The regulations existed before the consultants. Without those of us who are consultants, there would be no source of help. If you want to attack or be against somebody, let it be the Congress or others in government, not those who are helping. Yes we make money doing what we do, as do contractors, lawyers, doctors, actors, manufacturers, retailers, accountants, and anyone else in business offering a product or service people want and need. You can't push a string, and being against consultants, rather than joining with them, is worse yet, trying to push the wrong string.
You are mistaken. Many regulations, though I don't have the full background on these, are lobbied for by the very consultants who turn shiny new laws into industries. With the possible exception of lawyers, no one in that list lives by the artificial economies created when burdensome laws are forced upon productive people. Are there other types of consultants that exist between two individuals? Sure there are. But in this case the entire business of consulting that you are advocating for is because of government regulation.

So while it may be prudent as a business decision to use your services one day, currently it's not, I will never join forces with you pushing for even more regulation on more people.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:39 PM   #96
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You are mistaken. Many regulations, though I don't have the full background on these, are lobbied for by the very consultants who turn shiny new laws into industries.
You would be better off if you studied history or asked before typing. There was no consulting industry before the regulations! Asbestos consulting really did not take off until the requirement that K-12 schools be inspected in the late 1980s, and that was explosive growth. The asbestos consultants are generally the same ones who went into lead consulting, starting in the early 1990s, but lead consulting has never grown explosively.

So your choice becomes the status quo, with contractors better the rock of regulations and the hard place of losing work to those who ignore the regulations, or working with consultants, the only others to acknowledge the problem contractors have. Contractors by themselves have not accomplished any lessening of the regulations, and consultants have no, by themselves, been able to accomplish getting the focus back onto owners by requiring inspections. If the building had all been inspected, and the inspections put into the building department files, good contractors would have far less need to worry about losing work to those who ignore A&L. The third choice, in the fantasy category, is hoping the regulations go away soon. I'd not suggest anybody hold their breath waiting for that. Inaction and failing to work together will only allow the regulations to continue growing.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:48 PM   #97
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


The fourth choice is deciding not to work on homes that are covered under RRP and that is exactly what we did. I did not renew my certification last year and I most likely never will.
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:27 PM   #98
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The fourth choice is deciding not to work on homes that are covered under RRP and that is exactly what we did. I did not renew my certification last year and I most likely never will.
ditto

So many good posts on this topic, but I took the stance that Lee did.
In the "other RPP thread", I stated so, and somebody snickered and said to the effect "what, you can't afford a $100 liability policy?"

And I replied that it is ignorant to think that your liability is limited to the coverage of the policy. It's a starting point for the lawyers - not the end game.

See, and that's the other part of the dilemma: I really don't want to magnify an existing lead problem - but OTOH, I d*mned sure don't want to increase my "exposure" to liability.

As far as the OP stating they are just "here to help - to provide a needed service" - well no, dog, you are in the biz to make a buck. And it rankles me some to hear it expressed as "helping".

So guess what? I'll throw my money at a contractor licensed to do the testing and rip & tear "in-house" before I use a "consultant".

How many of these d*mned lead infested houses can still be left anyways?

I know the good people in Detroit and Flint are doing their part to burn them down - are there just a bunch of slackers in the rest of the country?
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:44 PM   #99
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


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ditto So many good posts on this topic, but I took the stance that Lee did. In the "other RPP thread", I stated so, and somebody snickered and said to the effect "what, you can't afford a $100 liability policy?" And I replied that it is ignorant to think that your liability is limited to the coverage of the policy. It's a starting point for the lawyers - not the end game. See, and that's the other part of the dilemma: I really don't want to magnify an existing lead problem - but OTOH, I d*mned sure don't want to increase my "exposure" to liability. As far as the OP stating they are just "here to help - to provide a needed service" - well no, dog, you are in the biz to make a buck. And it rankles me some to hear it expressed as "helping". So guess what? I'll throw my money at a contractor licensed to do the testing and rip & tear "in-house" before I use a "consultant". How many of these d*mned lead infested houses can still be left anyways? I know the good people in Detroit and Flint are doing their part to burn them down - are there just a bunch of slackers in the rest of the country?
Ha. I suppose in older cities there might be plenty but most of metro Atlanta and all of
north ga doesn't fall under this rule anyway and it's not worth messing with the homes that do.
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:44 AM   #100
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Re: 'RRP Nightmare-General Contractor And His Subcontractor Both Get Nailed By EPA'


A lot of lead paint is still around and you don't have to live in Detroit. I just got RRP certified. I SOOO did not want to but they are forcing us in Michigan. When will it end. I pay to get certified then I find out that my LLC will need a FIRM license. Another $300 to the gov. Why are they punishing the wrong people in the trades. FINE THE DAM HOME OWNERS AND UNLICENSED WORKERS!! The more certificates I have the more jobs I lose.

While I watch rehab addict Nicole Curtiss break every RRP law on national tv. Huh.

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