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RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped

 
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:37 PM   #1
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RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


I became a EPA certified contractor today.

I must say that nothing since I started a contracting business have I run into that has been what I feel is a deadly hammer blow to the ability of a contractor to run a profitable business as this new RRP rules.

After sitting through 8 hours of this and listening to the questions and answers and asking some very specific ones myself, I personally believe that no legitimate contractor will be able to be 100% compliant to these new rules and regulations, AND remain a viable business.

In my opinion - on April 22, the EPA will essentiall turn every single person in the home improvement field into a criminal no matter how well intentioned an individual is to comply with these regulations.

After taking the certification I am personally appalled that this legislation was allowed to get to where it is.

I'm willing to personally fund to some degree whatever anyone can come up with to begin getting the news and information out about this and doing whatever we can to at the least change it or at the best revoke it.

I believe it is time to see what political power can be harnessed with the collective membership of contractortalk.com, and I can think of no better cause then this horribly debilitating EPA regulation.

Whatever ideas you have please post them, I am serious at helping fund anything we can come up with that might help. Whether it's some sort of petition, or a website of information and protest of this thing or somehow getting our collective voice heard in Washington. I don't know what the solution should be, but I really believe this legislation is one of the worst things that has ever happened to the field of home improvements and will ultimately reshape our industry in nothing but a negative way for all involved.

If this is accepted as a serious proposition I would hope the moderators would make this post or one that become more refined as a solution as a sticky.

Thanks.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:41 PM   #2
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


We have been licensed in ohio for sevral years in Lead based paint abatemnet. I can tell you that every private sector job we were contacted to shop rates. In the public sector it works. But i understand what you are saying. the cost to the consumer will be to high to comply.

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Old 03-17-2010, 09:47 PM   #3
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


I live right in the middle of So Cal.. According to the web site that lists certified contractors there are only 36 legit contractors within a 50 mile radius of me.This is a very,VERY densely populated area.
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in texas with framing and cornish people will do it for 3.00 a foot. What do yall think about that? Just laber
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:52 PM   #4
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


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Originally Posted by JumboJack View Post
I live right in the middle of So Cal.. According to the web site that lists certified contractors there are only 36 legit contractors within a 50 mile radius of me.This is a very,VERY densely populated area.
Last I checked, there were 150 within 50 miles of me. RS must have been very busy notifying everyone
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:18 PM   #5
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


http://www.thecontractorcoachingpart...+RRP+Lead+Rule

Quote:
Two weeks ago I was at the lumber yard buying supplies and I saw a publication about the EPA RRP Lead Rule. I was not aware of this impending law due to my busy schedule and family responsibilities. Now that I am, I will follow the law and apply for my firm certification and I have scheduled my Certified Renovator Training. I beleive that I must be a totally legit business. I pay my taxes, carry general liability insurance, carry workmen's compensation for my carpenters, pay my workers matching taxes, have my builder's license, obtain permits, follow the code, have my state registration and follow safe work practices as required by OSHA.

I am an average hard working contractor and I love what I do. I have a great wife, two wonderful children and do the best I can to be a good father, husband, employer and community man. I must confess it is extremely hard these days since the housing industry has been decimated by the mismanagement of our economy.

With that said, I spent the past week reading the law and the requirements on the EPA sites. I have learned what must be done in order to comply. I see an estimate of $35.00 per job in the EPA wording and I am troubled how such a number was conjured up.
I have listed the things that I will have to do comply with the practices. The costs are no where near what you claim.

First the training and certification is 300.00 for my firm and 900.00 for my employees.

Second, I see I must purchase materials that will likely cost 600.00 to 700.00 to get started.

Third, I see I must be extemely diligent about the documentation and I must keep records for three years. I do not know what this will cost but I know that I must create a new paper work and filing system to make sure everything is correct in case of an audit. My best guess is that the paperwork will add several hours to each project and the office systems will cost several thousand in developing the right system, training my office manager, training my staff and setting up office infrastructure.

Fourth, I see that the lead safe practices which I can and will do, will impact productivity.

Fifth I see that my subs will have to become certified and I am concerned will they or will I be responsible for them as well.

Sixth, I wonder if my insurance will skyrocket. I called my agent and he said there is no insurance coverage for this. Only abatement coverage costing over $6000.00.

Seven, I see that enforcement will be by the EPA and building inspectors are not part of the plan.

Eight, will I have to compete against dozens of contractors who will fly under the radar and

Nine how will I explain this additional cost to a homeowner who has no equity, is fearful of losing their job, and facing huge increases in taxes, health care and energy. Adding up the costs; priceless.


I love my country, my family and my work helping homeowners improve their homes. I have no union to fight for me and yet I see they get preferred status from a government that has forgotten me and the residential construction industry. I don't want a bail out only a fair level playing field. Our industry is decimated and the more I have looked into this new law I picture thousands of contractors not abiding by these rules due to inadequate funding for enforcement.

So would you please do something for me? I will abide by the law. Could you at least promise me that you will require all cities and towns to cast a wide net to prevent all illegal contractors from perfoming illegal work? Will you demand that all pre-1978 projects requiring permits also require proof of your firm certification and certified renovator training? Will you deputize building and health inspectors to locally enforce this rule? Will you demand that insurance companies come up with a fairly priced insurance products that will protect us against claims for essentially dust protection and not abatement?

Then at least I can have some confidence that my government is striving to maintain a level playing field and I won't be the only one doing what is right. I too believe in the spirit of the rule to protect children, pregnant woman, homeowners and employees from lead poisoning.
What concerns me is the timing and the likelihood of no enforcement or insurance causing me to lose my business and not be able to provide for my family. If everyone else has to comply then I will compete on even ground and then may the best company prevail.

From a legal hard working contractor, father, husband, taxpayer, and small business owner who loves helping homeowners improve their homes.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:27 PM   #6
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Has anyone looked at their GL insurance policy and found the lead exclusion to your insurance?

Does the EPA estimated extra per job cost to comply of between $38 and $108 include an additional insurance policy between $2500-$4000 ?


Quote:
Insurance Issues
The EPA is broadening renovators’ responsibilities beyond the scope of a general contractor and General Liability policy. While contractors always have a Pollution exposure, the new EPA requirements increase the risk for Pollution liability claims. The new rule requires renovators to perform lead testing, encapsulation, and cleaning activities. It also requires the contractor to educate property owners/residents about the dangers of lead and the work to be performed.

A typical ISO GL policy usually excludes any meaningful Pollution coverage under exclusion “F” in the policy form. Most often a standard carrier will endorse an absolute pollution exclusion where they perceive heightened exposures. Stand alone Contractors Pollution Liability (CPL) policies are available for renovation contractors. The coverage provides third party bodily injury/property damage, defense, and remediation clean up coverage for their contracting operations.

Many excess and surplus lines insurance companies are offering on both a claims made and occurrence basis. Minimum policy limits usually start at $1 million with premiums in the $2,500 - $4,000 range. While the intent of the policy may be the same, coverage can vary tremendously between carriers. Be sure to receive a specimen policy when determining which coverage to purchase.

Renovation contractors should not only be aware of the current EPA regulations, but also how their changes in operations affect their current insurance programs.
Quote:
American Safety Insurance Company

ASI's Environmental Unit has been providing coverage for lead paint remediation contractors, as well as trade contractors who may come in contact with lead paint on an incidental basis, since 1986.

"Renovation, repair and painting contractors will be responsible for becoming certified in lead-safe work practices, which include completing training courses and getting the proper permitting from the EPA," said Preston Starr, Vice President of Environmental Underwriting for ASI. "Accordingly, all contractors, no matter who their carrier may be, need to check with their agents to ensure that they have a pollution liability policy in place."

"ASI has a track record responding to the continually evolving needs of contractors," said Starr. "We pride ourselves in providing a product that appropriately addresses the current exposures faced by our contractor customers, whether they focus on strictly environmental remediation or are general or artisan contractors who may conduct repair or renovation work on older homes or places where children frequent regularly."

The enhanced CPL coverage form was created specifically to cover pollution-related exposures for artisan, trade and general contractors. Premiums for CPL coverage begin as low as $2,500.

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Old 03-17-2010, 10:34 PM   #7
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Mike,

Where have you been the last three months? We've been up in arms about this for more than while. You are late to the party--real late, but glad you're here.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:38 PM   #8
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with protecting kids from lead, or homeowners from hacks.

This is a pure money grab and job grab, a stealth re-distribution, not only of money to the government, but of jobs to the illegals and ne'er-do-wells.

The target here is US, - -YOU and ME - - not the hacks or the illegals.

Is it not amazing that there are already so many rules and regulations now, - - that they actually had to go back a half-a-century to find something 'new' to regulate??

What's next, - - after they sucker everyone into this one??

Go even further back in time??

What, - - Dinosaur Dung certification??


DO NOT COMPLY WITH THIS DESTRUCTIVE DICTATORSHIP!!
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:40 PM   #9
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Yes, I am late. I have sat it out and read all the posts but always believed that inevitabley the rules could be followed.

I spent $1200 today for certification and the absurdity of it and outrage was palpable in the room, the trainers did well keeping the sessions moving forward, but the frustrations with the few people who were 'getting it' as the day went along and one absurd regulation and the consequences was exposed after another was intense.

What are we going to do about it now?

How many of you who are certified believe you are going to be 100% compliant and not be at risk of multiple $37,500 fines per incident?

How many of you who use subs understand that every sub on the job must be certified or you risk multiple $37,500 fines?

When April 22 comes along are everyone of your subs going to be certified?

How many of you believe you are going to pass along the costs of compliance to your customers?

How many of you are subs believe that your GCs are going to pay you what it takes for compliance and ignore your competitors who will cheat a little here and there and come in 30%-50% lower than you?

A window company owner I talked to today said they were getting numbers in line from subs in regard to how much windows were going to cost to install after april 22. He said today the number is about $125.00 a window and some subs were quoting $280 a window to comply.

What do you think is going to happen with that window company owner when he gets his bids on his next project from full complying contractors at $280 a window and guys who will cheat a bit at $230.... to guys who will fully ignore or fully cheat and quote $125 a window?

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Old 03-17-2010, 11:13 PM   #10
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


The EPA is busy finding ways to enforce the Cap and Trade Regulations and will totally ignore our complaints about the total absurdity of this regulation. Like my cohorts all say "the idiots are in charge".
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:42 PM   #11
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Hey Mike,
I couldn't agree more with you. When I do estimates and ask how old their house is, I mention this EPA lead thing coming up. Well no big surprise. The customer is clueless and then I think it scares the hell outta them. "Oh no, this contractor may tell the EPA I got lead in my house. Then who's gonna want to buy this house? Let's forget this contractor and get one who doesn't care"

Me personally. I'm waiting it out. I haven't been working and I don't have $600 for the training and certification.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:36 AM   #12
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Quote:
Originally Posted by TileLady View Post
Hey Mike,
I couldn't agree more with you. When I do estimates and ask how old their house is, I mention this EPA lead thing coming up. Well no big surprise. The customer is clueless and then I think it scares the hell outta them. "Oh no, this contractor may tell the EPA I got lead in my house. Then who's gonna want to buy this house? Let's forget this contractor and get one who doesn't care"

Me personally. I'm waiting it out. I haven't been working and I don't have $600 for the training and certification.
TileLady,

I'm curious to how you think this will affect you. Do you do a lot of work that involves paint disruption?

As a contractor that is ready to focus more on tile, I have been very curious to how this will be a factor to us. I understand wall tile/bathrooms & showers, but floor tile is huge for me. You?
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:42 AM   #13
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Angus,

I also do bathroom remodeling. Total guts. I think that qualifies for the EPA law right?

Tiling is my major thing but bathroom remodels make a whole lot more money.

Last edited by TileLady; 03-18-2010 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:53 AM   #14
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Quote:
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Angus,

I also do bathroom remodeling. Total guts. I think that qualifies for the EPA law right?

Tiling is my major thing but bathroom remodels make a whole lot more money.

Yes, you are correct. I wasn't sure of the scope of your business.

Good luck with RRP.
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:45 AM   #15
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


http://www.wddalliance.org./industry...ead-paint.html - has a good form letter and a list of major senator's and reps that can help stop this

Unfortunately they are only seeking to delay it - not eliminate it


Edit: by the way, verify everything with the actual reg - there has been plenty of training given that is flat out wrong and not required.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:22 AM   #16
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Does anyone know about any contractor related organizations fighting this?

NKBA
NARI

If they aren't why not?

I know the Sierra Club is a major force in shaping this legislation. They are actively fighting to have the opt out clause removed and I believe they have succeeded.

Why as a group are contractors sitting by and letting groups like the Sierra Club tie hang man's nooses and place them around our necks and slowly tightening them and building a gallows while we stand by and do nothing?

Are there just not many contractors that are aware of the details of this RRP?

The training manuel we were give is 400 pages!

400 pages!!!!

Do you know that this law states that it's going to be your responsibility to train anybody working with you using those 400 pages????

That means even if for one day you hire a part time laborer you have to train him or you are out of compliance. Are you ready to train people using a 400 page manuel?

Any of you guys who use temporary laborers from labor agencies for demo or other things - you'll need to hire them for a day and train them before they do anything for you. How are you going to do that? How would you train them?

It's not a joke, the EPA has record keeping requirements. You must document your training and keep it on the job site on every job you do of any workers on that site showing their training.

The EPA audit your job and every violation they find is fineable. Your guy isn't wearing a tyvek suit - a fine, you don't have proper docs on the site showing training - a fine, your guy let the tape on your containment plastic fall down - a fine. The EPA looks at your trash, opens it up and sees you didn't tape shut a plastic drop - a fine...
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:28 AM   #17
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


This is just the beginning!!!!!!!

If you study the track record of the EPA, their current proposed regulations,and their intentions for future regulations,you'll understand that there will be more regulations for us(and other business) to follow in the next few years.

You can bank on the fact that mandatory abatement certification will be the next step.

The fact that this was not publicized in a timely manner attests to the fact we are being railroaded into an unrepresented, bureaucratic submission.

Today's local paper ran a full page ad for my states(Ct.) intended legislation" to remove our right to read public notices in newspapers,moving them from public domain to the internet",.
The general public would have to view the governments websites to keep up with what is currently available to more people at a moments glance.

'Transparency' has become the new government mantra, but with the opacity of new legislation keep us in the dark.

As stated in the last Civil War:
Damn the torpedoes Full Speed Ahead!!!!

Last edited by oldfrt; 03-18-2010 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:13 PM   #18
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Mike look at this thread and listen to the hearing for your own ears. Its long but you will see whos involved and what they are trying to do. The hearing brought concerns to the forefront but in the end nothing changed.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f11/ne...55/#post896085
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:09 PM   #19
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Nothing is so broken that Government can't make it worse.
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:50 PM   #20
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Re: RRP And The EPA Must Be Stopped


Is there any builder or remodellers organization that may be committed to mounting a serious oppostion to this? If there is what would a $100.00 contribution from only 25% of the contractors affected by this do?

I am still not sure how this will affect me exactly. If I understand correctly, I am exempt if I disturb less than 6 sq. feet per room? That is a lot of cut in boxes. I probably just need to at least take the class to know for sure.

My guess is that no enforcement will take place for several years. Then guys will get complacent. After that, surprise! The EPA will step in and make examples out of an unfortuante few. Their lives will be ruined and everything they have worked for will be gone. I certainly assume that these fines cannot be escaped through bankrupcy.

As a practical matter, I have never, personally heard of anyone affected by lead poisoning. If this is so important, why are homeowners themselves exempt?

I may just refuse to perform any work on pre 78 homes that requires disturbing painted surfaces.

Sorry to ramble, but this is frustrating. Of course when dealing with the Federal government logic is not applicable.

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