Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal - Page 3 - Lead RRP Discussion - Contractor Talk

Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal

 
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:14 PM   #41
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Depending on how serious homeowners take this, however, it might make some pre `78 homes worth less, based on cutoff year. Knowing that a certain type contractor has to work on it, if they're that informed that is. While their home inspector may or may not pick up on this.

And larger cities have these in droves...

Older home appeal can suddenly turn a little less charming.

Last edited by artinall; 11-21-2018 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 11-22-2018, 10:04 AM   #42
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Each state can have it's own statute, it has to be as restrictive as the federal statute. The intetpretations aren't arbitrary, but there are some gray areas. One example would be cutting a piece of painted trim. The entire area of that piece is the area. OTOH, if you drill a series of very small holes in it until it's in 2 pieces, it's only the drilled area. Driving a nail through it, it's the entire area of the piece. Not necessarily so with driving a scew in.
Now that is funny..

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Old 11-22-2018, 10:39 AM   #43
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


It can be handy to know. If I pry off a nailed board, the whole board area counts. If I make a small hole saw bit just large enough to go around nail heads, then just remove the board it's just the hole area. Repair and prep offsite, then return and install with screws.

No demo, since it's reinstalled. Area rules aren't triggered, and stripping, sandung, etc aren't done on site, so anything goes.

Doing it that way costs $$, but some people up here will pay for it.
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Old 11-22-2018, 11:59 AM   #44
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


But what about, since much of this is focused on "the painting"...what if a primer coat is applied to the trim, can it all then be abrasive sanded afterward or this considered disturbing? A local paint dealer said yes. But I don't know.

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Old 11-22-2018, 12:11 PM   #45
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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But what about, since much of this is focused on "the painting"...what if a primer coat is applied to the trim, can it all then be abrasive sanded afterward or this considered disturbing? A local paint dealer said yes. But I don't know.
I don't think so. 90, maybe 100% of the lead tests I've done had no lead on the top layer or 10 layers. Still not allowed to sand. Just because you do a new layer doesn't change that.
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Old 11-22-2018, 12:30 PM   #46
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
It can be handy to know. If I pry off a nailed board, the whole board area counts. If I make a small hole saw bit just large enough to go around nail heads, then just remove the board it's just the hole area. Repair and prep offsite, then return and install with screws.

No demo, since it's reinstalled. Area rules aren't triggered, and stripping, sandung, etc aren't done on site, so anything goes.

Doing it that way costs $$, but some people up here will pay for it.
Fantastic way to reduce costs around foolish law. Obviously they'll object someday.

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Old 11-22-2018, 05:19 PM   #47
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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But what about, since much of this is focused on "the painting"...what if a primer coat is applied to the trim, can it all then be abrasive sanded afterward or this considered disturbing? A local paint dealer said yes. But I don't know.
No.

In fact, you could have installed new trim 2 years before the law went into effect, and you can't demo it or sand it. If you aren't certified, you can't meet the requirement of a negative lead test. You have to hire that out.

You can't disturb paint, period, that's why you don't sand between primer or coats.
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Old 11-22-2018, 07:06 PM   #48
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Assuming documenting is important- when disturbing < 6 sq ft. per room;

Taking pictures I've discovered don't really show the amount of surface detail needed to discern what is loose or been disturbed. Even when the surface has already been partly of wholly sanded down to wood or else stripped, or some of it, sealed before a painter even arrives on the job.

You could outline a layout of the place, and mark places patched/wet sanded. But I keep coming back to the idea that it's going to be really difficult to show that I followed the sq ft rule, when I actually did, when everything is paint covered. Is this left to the "ruling parties" personal judgement?

Another thing, is lead dust. If there is dust in the place and I didn't create it...I don't even own a HEPA vac. What then? Can enforcement discern wood-lead dust by sawing from hand-sanding trim?

It almost seems like someone has to witness someone sanding. Unless they could discreetly remove layer(s) of paint for any abrasion tracking.

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Old 11-23-2018, 11:00 AM   #49
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Assuming documenting is important- when disturbing < 6 sq ft. per room;

Taking pictures I've discovered don't really show the amount of surface detail needed to discern what is loose or been disturbed. Even when the surface has already been partly of wholly sanded down to wood or else stripped, or some of it, sealed before a painter even arrives on the job.

You could outline a layout of the place, and mark places patched/wet sanded. But I keep coming back to the idea that it's going to be really difficult to show that I followed the sq ft rule, when I actually did, when everything is paint covered. Is this left to the "ruling parties" personal judgement?

Another thing, is lead dust. If there is dust in the place and I didn't create it...I don't even own a HEPA vac. What then? Can enforcement discern wood-lead dust by sawing from hand-sanding trim?

It almost seems like someone has to witness someone sanding. Unless they could discreetly remove layer(s) of paint for any abrasion tracking.
This isn't CSI.

Pretty much either someone turns you in, or permits issued are checked against build date and documentation checked.

The worst case is some kid gets lead poisoning. Lawyers go in and everyone who worked on it us going to get sued. Have your scope of work and work practices ready. That's what you need to be ready for.

I also recommend you use HEPA vacs, even if they aren't RRP compliant. It's a general recommendation for any homeowner from HUD or the EPA, but it isn't a requirement. Ridgid also has a compliant HEPA vac at a resonable price, or they used to.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:44 AM   #50
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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This isn't CSI.

Pretty much either someone turns you in, or permits issued are checked against build date and documentation checked.

The worst case is some kid gets lead poisoning. Lawyers go in and everyone who worked on it us going to get sued. Have your scope of work and work practices ready. That's what you need to be ready for.

I also recommend you use HEPA vacs, even if they aren't RRP compliant. It's a general recommendation for any homeowner from HUD or the EPA, but it isn't a requirement. Ridgid also has a compliant HEPA vac at a resonable price, or they used to.
You say permits issued against build date. I have a chance to do a job where the permit was issued some time ago, more than six months before I arrived...where someone else did sanding and stripping. Then left.

Scope of work/work practice - as outlined in contract I take it?

I won't be doing any sanding on these projects. Homeowners must be willing to a accept a rougher finish, which I've never done.

One option I see is to let them do some "scratch sanding" if they want it smooth, before finish coat. But don't know how an "authority" would view this...splitting up of the work between homeowner and contractor. If they might still view it as part of "my project" even though homeowners are free to do as they wish basically. Things could get murky.

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Old 11-26-2018, 10:54 AM   #51
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Nothing murky about that, HOs can do anything they want, it doesn't trigger fed regulations.
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:05 AM   #52
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Just so they know I wasn't the one who did it.
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Old 11-26-2018, 12:56 PM   #53
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Just so they know I wasn't the one who did it.
I would think a signed notarized affidavit from the home owner saying they done the work would remove the liability from you.
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:17 PM   #54
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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I would think a signed notarized affidavit from the home owner saying they done the work would remove the liability from you.
And not just putting it in the contract?
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:23 PM   #55
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


I seen a young married couple poison their 3-4 year old daughter with lead dust circa early 1990s stripping Minneapolis 1900s two story down to bare wood with sanders, indoor and out over two years, the lead paint dust piled on the dirt all around the home out doors, and every room had lead paint dust uncollected for months, very sloppy no drop cloths during the vertical sanding, sanding in place in nearly every room including the play room and nursery bedroom.

The girl child had palsy for years, 1-3? before she stopped ingesting enough lead to keep her sick.

I told them to get her checked out, and "chelated" treatment for lead poisoning, Shocked to see even college educated farm kids could be so ignorant of the dangers of old paint dust for young mammals including children.

she supposedly returned to "gifted' normal.....

Sadly the EPA won't compare leaded paints to unleaded in black mold producing environs.....

Wouldn't lead based paints lower Radon exposure levels???
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:38 PM   #56
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


I too have met people who permanently injured their children.

The intent of the rule is to make sure kids don't get poisoned. Criminality is directly linked to lead exposure levels. Frontal lobe brain damage decreases impulse control. As professionals we can leave a safer healthier society behind as our legacy if comply with the intent of the law: dont poison people with lead.

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Old 11-26-2018, 07:50 PM   #57
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Wouldn't lead based paints lower Radon exposure levels???
Sad story.

Being Radon is a gas, not sure how lead paint would cause any significant environmental change.

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