Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal - Lead RRP Discussion - Contractor Talk

Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal

 
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:46 PM   #1
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Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Again, searched forum thinking I'd already seen it here a couple years before but maybe not...

About every decade, I end up on an older home; painting, maybe wall repair.

Is it true that 6 square foot must be disturbed before I must be certified and formally treat the stuff as "EPA Certified"? Are there other agencies involved or rules that apply? I'm simply caulking, puttying, priming, and painting over the existing wood trim, or coating walls - not removing walls, etc. I can't recall ever coming close to disturbing this footage on a pre-1978 home.

Obviously I don't want anyone to suffer from lead poisoning, especially children... but where, or is there risk when you go to do a residential interior repaint, and it is not peeling or lifting to begin with? And the project is basically tight.

How can the painter get in trouble when simply going out to an old home, where there happens to be lead based paint? (local building inspectors?)

And what if you come in on a job after another contractor already sanded the surfaces, primed or stripped surfaces that you are called to come in and prime and paint over? Is it strictly "must disturb 6 sq ft" in order to get into big trouble?

Last edited by artinall; 11-16-2018 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:07 PM   #2
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Technically you can't even look at or quote an older house if you aren't certified. You don't have the certification to use the swab to see if it is lead paint.

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Old 11-16-2018, 08:15 PM   #3
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Technically you can't even look at or quote an older house if you aren't certified. You don't have the certification to use the swab to see if it is lead paint.

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1978 is the cut off date.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:18 PM   #4
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Technically you can't even look at or quote an older house if you aren't certified. You don't have the certification to use the swab to see if it is lead paint.

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Not true.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:27 PM   #5
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Originally Posted by VinylHanger View Post
Technically you can't even look at or quote an older house if you aren't certified. You don't have the certification to use the swab to see if it is lead paint.

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That's often what's thrown around but even the EPA booklet you have to give to your client doesn't read that way.

Quote:
Federal law requires contractors that disturb painted surfaces in homes, child care facilities and schools built before 1978 to be certified and follow specific work practices to prevent lead contamination. Always ask to see your contractor’s certification.
Federal law requires that individuals receive certain information before renovating more than six square feet of painted surfaces in a room for interior projects or more than twenty square feet of painted surfaces for exterior projects or window replacement or demolition in housing, child care facilities and schools built before 1978.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:29 PM   #6
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


If somebody else sanded and primed, that isn't your problem.

Don't sand. Don't score anything with a knife. Don't hammer on anything.

Doing patches, sponge sand. Wall prep by cleaning is fine.

What they don't tell you is hammering on a board or wall could be interpreted as disturbing the entire board or wall.

If you have more specific questions, ask.

The 6 sqft is only used to trigger compliance requirements. You can do interior patch prep and paint using methods that disturb 0 sqft. The first thing to go is using sbrasives in patching and prep / paint.
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:20 PM   #7
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


This is taken from the EPA site . While I think the whole RRP thing is a joke, I think one needs to be careful when working on older homes. Like hdavis said no sanding , cutting or anything, although I disagree with if someone else did it is not your problem. Probably a gray area until they are looking to nail you.
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:50 PM   #8
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


https://www.epa.gov/lead/renovation-...am-contractors

At first it says:

Firms that require certification

"In general, anyone who is paid to perform work that disturbs paint in housing and child-occupied facilities built before 1978 must be certified"

But then:

"The following housing or activities are not covered by the rule

Minor repair and maintenance activities that disturb 6 square feet or less of paint per room inside"

Which seems self-negating -- having certification is stated as a generality, and seems to apply when 6 foot or more is disturbed.

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Old 11-16-2018, 09:57 PM   #9
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


It is an arbitrary rule. Then some states like ours have their own interpretation. Then it also comes down to what the meaning of is is most of the time.

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Old 11-16-2018, 10:10 PM   #10
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


That's correct, 6 sq ft or less does not require cimpliance with the law.

Have documented procedures dealing with patch prep and paint in older hones which disturbs 0 old paint.

Theoretically, there could be an issue if you came in on a projects and disturbed any when the rule has already been triggered. It's open to interpretation.

HOs are exempt, so they csn sand, saw, and bang away.

BTW, I received certification with a perfect score. I also have a copy of the EPA enforcement manual somewhere, and have read it, and some relevant EPA interpretations which have come along.

Having been trained, the fines I face for noncompliance are much stiffer than those who aren't trained and are unaware. Even so, I've been able to adjust so interior patch and paint do not trigger compliance.
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Old 11-16-2018, 10:19 PM   #11
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Originally Posted by VinylHanger View Post
It is an arbitrary rule. Then some states like ours have their own interpretation. Then it also comes down to what the meaning of is is most of the time.

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Each state can have it's own statute, it has to be as restrictive as the federal statute. The intetpretations aren't arbitrary, but there are some gray areas. One example would be cutting a piece of painted trim. The entire area of that piece is the area. OTOH, if you drill a series of very small holes in it until it's in 2 pieces, it's only the drilled area. Driving a nail through it, it's the entire area of the piece. Not necessarily so with driving a scew in.
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Old 11-17-2018, 06:26 AM   #12
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Do state statutes prevail? Or, can national EPA standard apply at the same time?

I can see where documenting individual patch/sand spots could quickly prove too difficult...working areas not showing on pictures, etc. Then there is the question of how can anyone else know besides the painter what exactly was done at the time and by who?

If someone else has been on the job 1st, then certain, many, or most, doors and trim could have been stripped first. Or sanded. Showing this after the fact could be next to impossible especially if re-priming was already done before pics taken. Then, the question of what primer type was used after the stripping, etc..

Last edited by artinall; 11-17-2018 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 11-17-2018, 11:40 AM   #13
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bush View Post
This is taken from the EPA site . While I think the whole RRP thing is a joke, I think one needs to be careful when working on older homes. Like hdavis said no sanding , cutting or anything, although I disagree with if someone else did it is not your problem. Probably a gray area until they are looking to nail you.
Easier to read...

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Old 11-17-2018, 12:20 PM   #14
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Quote:
Originally Posted by artinall View Post
Do state statutes prevail? Or, can national EPA standard apply at the same time?

I can see where documenting individual patch/sand spots could quickly prove too difficult...working areas not showing on pictures, etc. Then there is the question of how can anyone else know besides the painter what exactly was done at the time and by who?

If someone else has been on the job 1st, then certain, many, or most, doors and trim could have been stripped first. Or sanded. Showing this after the fact could be next to impossible especially if re-priming was already done before pics taken. Then, the question of what primer type was used after the stripping, etc..
I would assume it only has to do with what you are working in. If I go in and am just painting preprepped surfaces, it doesn't come into effect. Or even if I am just covering old lead paint and not hard prepping it.

I can use TSP substitute and wash it down and degloss then prime and paint, and it doesn't activate the protocals.

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Old 11-17-2018, 12:43 PM   #15
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


I don't know a single contractor, painting or otherwise that even pays attention to these laws.
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:03 PM   #16
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Quote:
Originally Posted by artinall View Post
Do state statutes prevail? Or, can national EPA standard apply at the same time?

I can see where documenting individual patch/sand spots could quickly prove too difficult...working areas not showing on pictures, etc. Then there is the question of how can anyone else know besides the painter what exactly was done at the time and by who?

If someone else has been on the job 1st, then certain, many, or most, doors and trim could have been stripped first. Or sanded. Showing this after the fact could be next to impossible especially if re-priming was already done before pics taken. Then, the question of what primer type was used after the stripping, etc..
If your work practices don't trigger it, it isn't a problem.
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:06 PM   #17
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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I don't know a single contractor, painting or otherwise that even pays attention to these laws.
Most of the buildings up here are pre 1978. Exterior repaints tend to be under RRP. All the larger paint contractors seem to.

Last edited by hdavis; 11-17-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 11-17-2018, 05:19 PM   #18
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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Do state statutes prevail? Or, can national EPA standard apply at the same time?
They apply at the same time. Most states just adopted the federal statute. Maine tweaked it a little bit.

Under the federal statute, I can go scrape my 88 yo Mom's house, and as long as I'm uncompensated, I don't have to comply with any of that.

State statute just says anyone except the HO has to comply.
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Old 11-17-2018, 07:11 PM   #19
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


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I would assume it only has to do with what you are working in. If I go in and am just painting preprepped surfaces, it doesn't come into effect. Or even if I am just covering old lead paint and not hard prepping it.

I can use TSP substitute and wash it down and degloss then prime and paint, and it doesn't activate the protocals.

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Please clarify what you mean by hard prepping.

I see doors and trimmed already stripped and with some already sanded (partly or all). I see no problem with doing priming, caulking, putty and paint on these surfaces.

If a piece of trim has been already completely stripped down, I don't see a problem priming onward, but again, somebody else not be able to tell the diff.
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Old 11-17-2018, 07:47 PM   #20
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Re: Older Homes, And The Lead Paint Deal


Yes there are numerous ways around it but document, document, document - proper scope of work with contract is your best defense along with pictures.

Be sure you know the exemptions, especially regarding demo...
http://thehtrc.com/2012/epa-rrp-enfo...ctions-impacts & http://thehtrc.com/2010/rrp-620-exemption-limits might help you on some of this - granted some are older pieces but to my knowledge not much has changed

As for other agencies - OSHA is big followed by HUD --- there should be a link to OSHA in the related articles section or linked in one of the pieces

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