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New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This

 
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:00 PM   #721
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Guys, just a thought here.

Lecturing, squabbling and personal agendas do nothing but muddy the original intent of this thread, and of making it a "sticky." That intent was to make us all aware of the rule's existence, and what we need to do to comply with it.

I respectfully submit that many of the recent posts here have nothing to do with that purpose, and it would serve us all better if such discussions took place in a different thread.
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Originally Posted by rselectric1 View Post
Right on Tin!

Anyone who has followed this thread from the day Chris started it knows that it has sometimes become an avenue to vent, but often straightens itself out and gets back on subject after awhile.

The guys who post to this thread with an intention of "showing who's boss" or trying to find personal loopholes in an effort to circumvent the inevitable April 22, or prove that the rule doesn't apply to "them", or "I'm not changing because I've always done it this way and nobody died", need to read ALL the posts here and know that the frustration they feel has already been acknowleged. We're all feeling the frustration.

If you are not planning on following the rules, you will, for all intent's and purposes become an official "hack" on 4/22.

As Tin stated, lets stop arguing about what we think about all this because it's out of our hands for now. Let's share information on staying legitimate.

Rant Over (And yes, I'm frustrated about this too)
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one of the Mods could prune some of
the useless sniping posts?
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:14 AM   #722
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


After reading about this new EPA act I have determined that this is just another attack on our freedom. And we the people if we really care and understand must stand up and stop this practice. Good men and women died for those rights. I respect folks that serve in anyway to protect our Constitution, and I'm willing to make sacrifices to keep us free from any person or organized group, even if they disguise themselves as a GOV. help agency. You can always tell these organizations by the way they use scare tactics intimidation and threats.
If you don't understand the importance of what I an saying, your either one of them or your in great danger.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:21 AM   #723
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Sean Lintow, SLSTech, has written an open letter to the EPA that makes some great points and I think it's very pertinent to this discussion:

Quote:
I am sure you have heard this popular legal mantra, that “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” Really, so what might happen if a regulatory agency does not inform the public that such a regulation exists? Well, according to one agency’s own internal documents; “If the regulation is not accompanied by education efforts and enforcement, then we could unintentionally drive up demand for non-compliant renovation projects.”

Did you know that Executive Order 12866 calls for three findings to justify the need for a federal regulation? First, there must be a description of the market failure or social purpose that can be met via the regulation. Secondly, there should be an explanation of why the regulation should be carried out at the federal level. Finally, there should be a discussion of why the current regulatory initiatives are not sufficient to correct the market failure.

So when the first criteria is met due to “Incomplete/Incorrect Information…” and it will be corrected by: “by providing information to the consumer and contractor about the risk associated…“ you would expect that said agency would make sure that informing the public would be one of its primary focus. Well, here we are counting down to one of the biggest regulations to hit the pre-1978 housing market and still hardly anyone knows anything about it. The most optimistic survey I have seen shows that maybe 20% of all the affected contractors even have a clue about it. Homeowners, realtors and other affected parties – maybe 1% do. How about those that know about the regulation, or are supposed to train people on it? Well I can honestly tell you that pure confusion reigns due to bad information, personal agendas, etc…

The agency in charge of this fiasco – The EPA

The new regulation – Title 40 Part 745 — LEAD-BASED PAINT POISONING PREVENTION IN CERTAIN RESIDENTIAL STRUCTURES

I have covered many of the basics in these articles on the EPA RRP Rule. Two of the biggest items are that one individual must be trained as a Certified Lead Renovator and any firms wishing to work on pre 1978 homes had to become a Certified Firm. The Certified Firm is a major issue, because if you are not certified come April 22nd, you cannot work in or sign a contract on a pre-78 house (even if the project was under way.) One item mentioned on their site repeatedly is that it could take up to 90 days to get you certified.

I remember reading on the EPA’s site, hearing it from a few instructors that no other state was close to being certified by them, so everyone except for firms located in Wisconsin needed to register as a certified firm. Based on that information and a quick check back then of all applicable Alabama government websites, that showed no action or knowledge of it, we sent in our Firm Certification back in during December. About 3 weeks ago, we are reading about North Carolina & Iowa all of a sudden being certified, with no mention of any other states being close. Imagine my surprise this morning when I come across this site: http://www.healthyhomestraining.org/RRP/State.htm where it has our state listed as Pending with a ruling expected by the end of this month.

So what happens in this state if Alabama all of a sudden takes over the program? Will the prior required training certificate work? What about the firm certification form and money already sent “in good faith”? How about all the other states that are listed or are working on this program? Are there any other states that we do not know about? How about providing those of us trying to comply with your regulations getting some legitimate information?

While we are at it, how about you release the true costs for the homeowners and contractors that abide with this? The first cost estimates state it would only add about $35 to the cost of a job. Then all of a sudden when most of us scoffed at this price, you come up with a range from $8 to $167 a job. What is hilarious is apparently you forgot about the Freedom of Information Act & that we can go back and look at your original documents like this one http://www.epa.gov/oppt/economics/pubs/lrrpnprmea.pdf. Based off your fuzzy math using 2005 numbers – it was figured out that the containment costs per job would run anywhere from $22.67 to $527.89 per job using “flexible work practices” not the harder prescriptive methods you have imposed. I can guarantee you that the $22 number is still too low based on just the paperwork and homeowner education aspect.

Can you explain to everyone why your only approved test is “not recognized” for testing drywall or plaster? You do realize that this is a NIST certified product that exceeds your requirements? How do you even start to justify this?

Why did you change your original proposal that originally called for a two-phase roll out? Why was the rollout pushed so fast? Your original requirements showed that it would take a year using 168 training companies to provide the needed training for half the appropriate individuals (2-phase rollout). So why is it that once training was allowed to start, you have only allowed 6 months for training, and have only certified 133 firms to date? So how about it everyone, care to take a step back, answer the questions, and get this program rolled out in a more sensible manner?

Maybe we need an Executive Order that states that those that come up with said rules, regulations and laws must adequately inform and educate the public about them along with any changes made after the fact.

My .02,

Sean Lintow Sr. – Owner
SLS Construction
The implementation of the new rule has been handled very very poorly, and as individual states come online with their own variations on certification and requirements it's only going to get worse.
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:23 PM   #724
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Contractors - you'all will need to be ready for being accused of being part of the problem, or working for the regulators. Consultants have had to deal with such accusations for years. We often have to remind people that we had nothing to do with writing the regulations, and that we will help them avoid problems and excessive costs (vs some consultants who try to scare people and tell them they have to do all kinds of unnecessary or excessive work). Sometimes I'll tell people that I am a conservative/libertartian environmental consultant, not an oxymoron, and point them to my dozens of published letters to the editor, mainly in the Orange County Register.
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:53 PM   #725
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


I’m in agreement that this thread occasionally gets off track (slightly over 85% of the time) and should stay stickied(sp?) where it is for the purpose of informing Contractors and guests and updating EPA RRP news. However, I don’t want to see some of the off-track discussions stop. I propose two separate threads for this purpose.

The first thread: “RRP Best Practices” (discuss tools, equipment, time saving tips & tricks, business practices for selling it, cost containment, cost tracking, etc). I just hate to see this thread die without another thread to go to. I would just start this thread but search shows a bunch of disjointed threads available. Should they – can they – be merged to start the thread or should we just start one from scratch?

The second thread: “RRP Complaint Thread” (for those that can’t stay focused on what the first thread was created for). There has got to be a way to create a location that is out of public view, where all other disagreements can be aired! As much as I don’t want to argue what I consider “dead horses” (see posts 525 – 537 then SLS took the torch for posts 673 – 692) I did learn a few things during that back and forth. FStephen makes a valid point in post 724 – I don’t want to loose site of it or the discussion about it.

No rant here – just thoughts!
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:16 AM   #726
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Hi, I'm new here. When I herd about this new EPA rule I joined CT to learn more what does this all mean to me a small business owner.
I read a lot of posts. Just about everyone has some kind of agenda or axe to grind. My dad taught me about the carpentry trade, but most of all he taught me about people. I can live under most any government system, just don't lie to me or cheat me. Lately I've become aware that our elected officials have been corrupted. Just look at health care reform, cap and trade, Bail outs, And even the FAIRNESS Bill or act. These programs are vehicles to separate the small folks like mefrom our money and freedoms. This EPA Reg 'RRP" Is classic Power grab by a out of control government agency.
I WILL NOT BECOME PART OF THEIR FOOD CHAIN.
I"M TRIED OF IT AND MAD AS HELL.
SOMEONE HELP US PLEASE!
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:40 AM   #727
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


It looks as though I might shoot down to Jersey ($225.00 less than here in the city) to take the class on Friday.
I see it as paying a few hundred dollars for the opportunity to place another feather in my cap as well as come off more professional/prepared.

Also, I will have no compunction towards explaining to a potential customer the ramifications of hiring a contractor that has not been certified: huge fines, stop work orders, etc.

On the flip side though, Do any of you feel this will scare off some clients?
Sh!t, I have customers that make us take off our shoes or wear booties while in their home.
How do you suppose they will react to Danger: Lead Paint
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:40 AM   #728
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


I find this whole thing very repetitive. I took the first lead course in the 80's from the New York institute of science, then again in the 90's when they once again tried to implement these rules and regulations (largely ignored) then again in 08 with the clppp (moderate risk training) and now again in 2010.. I wonder if it will stick this time?? My company has had a hazmat procedure and lead handling training for years. Just a point to ponder.. We take all these precautions then place our plastic wrapped lead particles and put them in the dumpster or land fill.. WTF, then what.. they sit there until the plastic tears or deteriorates then get washed into our water supplies with the rain water.. Unless the landfill has a storm water management policy that handles water runn off we are just delaying another whole issue...
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:58 AM   #729
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellison View Post
It looks as though I might shoot down to Jersey ($225.00 less than here in the city) to take the class on Friday.
I see it as paying a few hundred dollars for the opportunity to place another feather in my cap as well as come off more professional/prepared.

Also, I will have no compunction towards explaining to a potential customer the ramifications of hiring a contractor that has not been certified: huge fines, stop work orders, etc.

On the flip side though, Do any of you feel this will scare off some clients?
Sh!t, I have customers that make us take off our shoes or wear booties while in their home.
How do you suppose they will react to Danger: Lead Paint
Mellison please close your eyes and open your conscience. Now you see two very small contractors there. One dressed in white with a halo around his head setting on your left shoulder and the other contractor dress in red with horns on your right shoulder. The one in red with the horns says to you come on lets take advantage of this evil law and scare my clients. and the other contractor in white says You like to gamble?? DON"T GAMBLE WITH YOUR CHARACTER! its the one thing that everyone will remember about you forever.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:10 AM   #730
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Mellison please close your eyes and open your conscience. Now you see two very small contractors there. One dressed in white with a halo around his head setting on your left shoulder and the other contractor dress in red with horns on your right shoulder. The one in red with the horns says to you come on lets take advantage of this evil law and scare my clients. and the other contractor in white says You like to gamble?? DON"T GAMBLE WITH YOUR CHARACTER! its the one thing that everyone will remember about you forever.
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Good point.
I didn't mean it quite that way . However, I can see that from my post, it could defidently look that way.
I saw being certified as just another selling point as well as someting to compare against when comparing other bids.
That is never the way I handle my business/potential customers (scare tactics or the like) and would hate to leave an impression as such.
Thanks again,
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:51 AM   #731
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellison View Post
On the flip side though, Do any of you feel this will scare off some clients?
Sh!t, I have customers that make us take off our shoes or wear booties while in their home.
How do you suppose they will react to Danger: Lead Paint
Here is a useful technique which we often require that abatement contractors use - put the signs on the containment, but then put up another barrier of opaque or black polyethylene several feet away from the critical barrier on the work area. This also helps avoid people seeing workers donning coveralls (aka "bunny suits"), and respirators.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:19 AM   #732
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Well, I got snowed out from my class last week and got rescheduled for this Thurs. 2/18. They told me 18 class size, no more than 6 class members per instructor.
I think the main reason there is no publicity about all the lead to the general public yet is that there aren't very many companies certified so far. It would raise a panic with the public and there would be very few contractors to do the work...legally.
I'm calling my insurance agent to see what I will need in extra coverage. There was an article in Remodeling that was about no insurance companies will have coverage in a general liability policy unless you had a "pollution" rider attached to it.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:19 PM   #733
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Here is a useful technique which we often require that abatement contractors use - put the signs on the containment, but then put up another barrier of opaque or black polyethylene several feet away from the critical barrier on the work area. This also helps avoid people seeing workers donning coveralls (aka "bunny suits"), and respirators.
You are starting to sound like our not so transparent government that is so deep in the tank of the lobbies they didn't see Massachusetts coming. They see it NOW and they are leaving the ship faster than you can say AL Core. Countless members of gov. that had backed now exposed fraudulent bills and reg. have destroyed their political carers.
Once I explained to Mellison not to use tactics that employ scaring his uninformed customers he saw the light. I felt like the Salvation Army. Put a nickle in the drum save another d...... b......
My feelings are to get certified but also offer the OPT-OUT option that our Constitution allows.
Then I will be able to sleep at night.

When I see someone in a protective suite I sure want to know WHY especially if I'm not wearing one.

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Old 02-16-2010, 01:00 PM   #734
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Hate to see this thread turn into a political rant
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:16 PM   #735
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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You are starting to sound like our not so transparent government ..
How? Why the insult? I will avoid politics, but the Orange County Register, LA Times, and a few other papers have published doszens of letters from me, so my conservative/libertarian positions are certainly no secret (what - a conservative environmental consultant who is not a greenie weanie - yes).

I was trying to tell you'all how to avoid problems caused by people seeing the signs you have to post. You just provided a good example of blaming a consultant for the regulations. As I mentioned above, contractors will also be blamed for the regulations, so need to start thinking about how they will respond.

I just noticed that the statement in Sean's letter quoted above is incorrect because it is incomplete - "one individual must be trained as a Certified Lead Renovator." For many firms, more than one person, and perhaps all of their supervisors, will have to be Renovators, as the Renovator has to be at the job site during many activities specified in the regulation.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:22 PM   #736
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


I'd rather this discussion didn't turn into a political diatribe. Those comments are outside of the scope of this thread and this part of the forum. You are welcome to start a thread to discuss those issues in the Politics and Religion area, once you've met the minimum post requirements to go there.

My original purpose was to inform and educate contractors about the rule and what it will mean for their businesses in the coming year. Let's stay OT in that regard.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:27 PM   #737
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


I got an update from my insurance agent this morning, who's trying to locate a pollution policy for my company to supplement our GL. He's had two different providers tell him they are placing a temporary moratorium on those policies until they've had a chance to re-evaluate in light of the new regulation.

Anyone else have any luck with their insurance people?
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Old 02-16-2010, 04:12 PM   #738
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Oh, you mean until they can figure out how much they need to raise them so you'll basically need to go out of business.




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Old 02-16-2010, 04:43 PM   #739
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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I just noticed that the statement in Sean's letter quoted above is incorrect because it is incomplete - "one individual must be trained as a Certified Lead Renovator." For many firms, more than one person, and perhaps all of their supervisors, will have to be Renovators, as the Renovator has to be at the job site during many activities specified in the regulation.
Read the regs & get a clue please

I am sure many places will have more than 1 but it is not a requirement based on the RRP

You might want to start your own thread where you actually have some knowledge and stop posting in this thread as you continually screw up the easiest items dealing with the reg and just add to the confusion
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:31 PM   #740
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Well I signed up for a class on Monday the 22nd. My thoughts are like Mellison's why not it is only $200.00 and it puts another feather in the cap and OH my God we might learn something! which most contractors are reluctant to do ....I been doing it this way for years.

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