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New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This

 
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:50 AM   #521
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Not trying to step on Contractor Talk or doing any spamming, but I've been motivated to start an organization for Certified Renovators (or soon to be Certified Renovators). It is at www.certifiedrenovatorcouncil.org.

The membership is free.

It is ultimately my purpose to develop an organization that will help us all out.

I will admit that it is in the very of roughest stages. It is brand new and still being constructed to a large extent.

I especially need folks who have taken the certified renovator course or who are training instructors on RRP.

Long story short ... I need your help and need your experience, so please join the organization.

This is a new law, so many of you who have taken the course and studied the rule ... are the "veterans" and experienced ones.

If you are interested in helping with this organization, please send me a PM

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:06 PM   #522
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Originally Posted by hiteams View Post
many of you who have taken the course and studied the rule ... are the "veterans" and experienced ones.
Don't forget that many consultants and abatement contractors have been dealing with lead for many years (17 plus for many).

Two of the things that experience has taught us is that many buildings built before 1978 have NO lead paint, and that many buildings with lead paint have it on just one or a few surfaces. That is why it is wise to have the paint tested by a good consultant with an XRF on anything more than small projects where assuming the small amount of paint to be disturbed might be less expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVinciRemodel View Post
if they had split the fine 50-50 with the homeowner being the other 50. The way this is written - the HO is actually rewarded for searching for an unethical and/or stupid contractor.
I agree 100% with that very good point! Pressure by property owners and property managers, including immigrants with little or no understanding of the regulatory situation in the USA, is a very big problem. However, if you document that you told the owner and gave him written materials, that will protect you, and may help educate them.

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Originally Posted by DaVinciRemodel View Post
Testing of any sort is the most ridiculous thing you can even suggest or try to justify.
The alternative is simply assuming that every painted surface is coated with lead paint. You are wishing that the third alternative, assuming that no lead paint is present, is possible, but those days are gone. You and I are little fish who can not change the regulation. It is here to stay. The choice is really between risking fines, jail, and lawsuits and having to worry about those things, or finding ways to avoid those things.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:36 PM   #523
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Originally Posted by FStephenMasek View Post
Don't forget that many consultants and abatement contractors have been dealing with lead for many years (17 plus for many).
I for one am most happy to listen to anyone with experience in abatement. So, please keep on posting.

However, the RRP Rule is not abatement. Most of us here are small contractors trying to make a living. To hire a lead inspector using XRF is not going to be cost effective, especially, when the EPA allows us to do our own testing (whether it is accurate or not is another discussion).

I value your experience and input. Yet, discussing abatement, is not discussing the RRP Rule.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:57 PM   #524
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Abatement and RRP are two different things, but there is much to be learned from the abatement people - containment set-up techniques, equipment and supply sources and effectiveness, and so forth.

One suggestion I'll offer is to find the supply houses in your area who cater to abatement contractors. They will probably have the best prices on equipment such as HEPA vacuums and negative air machines, and supplies such as tape and polyethylene sheeting.

Two other suggestions:

1) Apply blue low-tack tape to a surface you do not want to damage, then attach polyethylene sheeting with normal duct tape adhered to the blue tape.

2) A cheap pole to support polyethylene sheeting can be made by screwing a rubber plunger cup on the end of a telescoping painter's pole.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:27 PM   #525
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Originally Posted by FStephenMasek View Post
The alternative is simply assuming that every painted surface is coated with lead paint. You are wishing that the third alternative, assuming that no lead paint is present, is possible, but those days are gone. You and I are little fish who can not change the regulation. It is here to stay. The choice is really between risking fines, jail, and lawsuits and having to worry about those things, or finding ways to avoid those things.
Lets be clear here. We are certified! We will follow the letter of the law! We are not "wishing...assuming... risking" anything in regards to this law.

I have spoken to a local certified inspector here that we have used in the past for asbestos. When I asked about the cost of lead testing his answer was clear... straight forward... honest: "Under no circumstances should you do or have someone else do a lead test. Assume it's there and take the appropriate measures to contain. The risk of a positive result is too high and it will cost your customer dearly. I would not do the test in my own home."

My objection to your post is as follows:

1. Your tag line indicates that you have a dog in this fight and it against my dog in this fight.
2. Instead of just advising to "assume that it's there and take proper precautions", we got a lecture on a better (more expensive) test that's available.
3. You seemed to sugar coat the fact that this law puts honest contractors at a sever disadvantage. Yes we will try to turn to our advantage also, but make no mistake this is going to be painful to honest contractors and our customers.
4. You seem to think that California is the standard to measure against. That's like me holding up some chitty crafsmanship against some chittier crafsmanship and say "see its not that bad".

I'm not looking for a fight - I just want posters to be honest with their advice.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:45 PM   #526
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Maybe this was touched on already, maybe not. but do painters really pull permits to do jobs? if not. then what is to stop a painter from working on a house, scraping, sanding etc, no permit necessary, so no one really knows he's there doing the work especially if he's inside. Last i checked, you didn't need to pull a permit to paint or to sand/refinish floors when these are the guys most likely going to be causing lead dust to be spread around a house.

I know some flooring guys have the dust free sand system in a trailer but most don't. either do painters.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:54 PM   #527
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by FStephenMasek View Post
Abatement and RRP are two different things, but there is much to be learned from the abatement people - containment set-up techniques, equipment and supply sources and effectiveness, and so forth.

One suggestion I'll offer is to find the supply houses in your area who cater to abatement contractors. They will probably have the best prices on equipment such as HEPA vacuums and negative air machines, and supplies such as tape and polyethylene sheeting.

Two other suggestions:

1) Apply blue low-tack tape to a surface you do not want to damage, then attach polyethylene sheeting with normal duct tape adhered to the blue tape.

2) A cheap pole to support polyethylene sheeting can be made by screwing a rubber plunger cup on the end of a telescoping painter's pole.
Thanks for your 3 suggestions! I've actually have been doing the blue tape trick, but didn't even think about the plunger cup on a painter's pole. I have a suction cup on the end of a painter's pole to change light bulbs (up high). Now that you mention it ... I've should have seen it before
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:57 PM   #528
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
Maybe this was touched on already, maybe not. but do painters really pull permits to do jobs? if not. then what is to stop a painter from working on a house, scraping, sanding etc, no permit necessary, so no one really knows he's there doing the work especially if he's inside. Last i checked, you didn't need to pull a permit to paint or to sand/refinish floors when these are the guys most likely going to be causing lead dust to be spread around a house.

I know some flooring guys have the dust free sand system in a trailer but most don't. either do painters.
Dan,

There is actually nothing to keep painters from working on homes without being certified. However, if they happen to get caught ... they can pay a pretty hefty fine. Plus, if Certified Renovator happens to drive by ... they may inform the EPA or worse yet ... the homeowner.

To follow or not to follow is up to each of us.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:55 PM   #529
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Dean - I'm glad to help. The credit for the plunger idea goes to the mold abatement crew with Jon Wayne Construction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVinciRemodel View Post
"The risk of a positive result is too high and it will cost your customer dearly."

You seem to think that California is the standard to measure against.
I'm here to help, and I have already learned a few useful things from the people here.

Discussing is not fighting, and I understand that contractors may be upset.

California does not seem very different from other states regarding lead, although San Francisco has had a strict painting rule for quite a few years, and San Diego has really tightened-up on lead. Cal-OSHA's regulations are almost straight copies of the federal regulations. In some cases, other states have more stringent or burdensome laws and regulations (the Texas and Florida asbestos consulting rules come to mind).

I really do not understand what that consultant you spoke with is saying. I own a consulting company, have been in the business two decades, and am also a landlord. Other than a small job where testing would cost more than assuming, I just can not imagine any situation in which assuming, but not knowing, would have a better outcome. It is worth repeating that lead paint is not everywhere, and that many buildings will be found not to have any lead paint, or lead on just one or a few items.

We've wondered why EPA come up with the new regulation, and the only thing we come up with is that they knew that the existing laws and regulations were being widely ignored. Of course, they will obtain fees, but the fines are probably the main revenue to be generated by the new regulation.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:23 PM   #530
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
Maybe this was touched on already, maybe not. but do painters really pull permits to do jobs? if not. then what is to stop a painter from working on a house, scraping, sanding etc, no permit necessary, so no one really knows he's there doing the work especially if he's inside. Last i checked, you didn't need to pull a permit to paint or to sand/refinish floors when these are the guys most likely going to be causing lead dust to be spread around a house.

I know some flooring guys have the dust free sand system in a trailer but most don't. either do painters.
Apgar, this law has nothing to do with building departments or permits. This law is the EPA.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:36 PM   #531
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


but who do you think is going to enforce the law when you apply for a permit. this is all going to get passed onto local townships and building depts. the federal gov. doesn't have the funding or manpower to bring their own people in to take control of this. I honestly think this is just to make money and has nothing to do with them enforcing any of it. I live in a rural area where the local townships can barely have people working 3 days a week and when they are there, it's for like 2-3 hours a day. and they share building inspectors. so you really think they can crack down on infractions.
most people won't even know about it by april, let alone be certified.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:50 PM   #532
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
but who do you think is going to enforce the law when you apply for a permit. this is all going to get passed onto local townships and building depts. the federal gov. doesn't have the funding or manpower to bring their own people in to take control of this. I honestly think this is just to make money and has nothing to do with them enforcing any of it. I live in a rural area where the local townships can barely have people working 3 days a week and when they are there, it's for like 2-3 hours a day. and they share building inspectors. so you really think they can crack down on infractions.
most people won't even know about it by april, let alone be certified.
Apgar, You're 100% right - some day it will get passed down to the local level. That's tomorrows battle - Todays battle is different.
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:52 PM   #533
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


In all honesty, I'm not sure if you just don't get it or if you just don't want to get it. I'm guessing the latter - you sound too smart to just not get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FStephenMasek View Post
Discussing is not fighting, and I understand that contractors may be upset.

Please don't confuse "contractors" with "honest, law abiding contractors". It is the latter that will be hurt by this. Looking at the consequences of their actions has never been a strong point for enviromentalist. At one time we needed to stop using paper bags (we're cutting down too many trees), now our landfills are full of plastic bags and they're complaining about that. They're actions here will have consequences also. There are already threads in other forums that are working on ways around this. This law will be counterproductive. Good contractors out of work - chitty construction being done - homeowners being cheeted by contractors and the government.

California does not seem very different from other states regarding lead, although San Francisco has had a strict painting rule for quite a few years, and San Diego has really tightened-up on lead. Cal-OSHA's regulations are almost straight copies of the federal regulations. In some cases, other states have more stringent or burdensome laws and regulations (the Texas and Florida asbestos consulting rules come to mind).

If California is not that much different - then what were you trying to point out in your post? In this post you added San Francisco, San Diego, Texas and Florida to your measuring stick. It seems to me you've now added chittiest to chitty and chittier.

I really do not understand what that consultant you spoke with is saying. I own a consulting company, have been in the business two decades, and am also a landlord. Other than a small job where testing would cost more than assuming, I just can not imagine any situation in which assuming, but not knowing, would have a better outcome. It is worth repeating that lead paint is not everywhere, and that many buildings will be found not to have any lead paint, or lead on just one or a few items.

You do reallize that a positive lead test result, just like a possitive asbestos test result, must be disclosed at the time of sale? Have you ever see the effect a possitive asbestos test result has on a property value? Even if it was abated the effect is huge. Lead paint is our current day asbestos. This is a case of ignorance is bliss. Take all the precautions - but do not test.

We've wondered why EPA come up with the new regulation, and the only thing we come up with is that they knew that the existing laws and regulations were being widely ignored. Of course, they will obtain fees, but the fines are probably the main revenue to be generated by the new regulation.
I've stoped wondering why. I'm wondering what's next. You do know water kills more kids in a day than lead does in a year. Is water next? If not next not far behind. Read Atlas Shrugged - you'll stop wondering why.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:46 PM   #534
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


DaVinci,

Very good point, when you said

You do reallize that a positive lead test result, just like a possitive asbestos test result, must be disclosed at the time of sale? Have you ever see the effect a possitive asbestos test result has on a property value? Even if it was abated the effect is huge. Lead paint is our current day asbestos. This is a case of ignorance is bliss. Take all the precautions - but do not test.

Never thought of that
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:39 PM   #535
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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...We've wondered why EPA come up with the new regulation, and the only thing we come up with is that they knew that the existing laws and regulations were being widely ignored. Of course, they will obtain fees, but the fines are probably the main revenue to be generated by the new regulation.
Bingo - we have found the issue. You thought wrong and never did dig to find out why it was created. While the EPA, HUD & CDC would have liked to eradicate lead from houses in the last 10 years (goal stated in 1999), they found out that goal was impossible.

The idea behind the Renovation Regulations is simple - They are assuming that lead is present in every "target housing" renovation & it will still be there when the renovation is completed - but by using the RRP practices the lead will not impact the family or workers. It is not a lead abatement regulation or anything else - it is a protect the kids while work is being completed regulation.

The EPA also knows that if they tried to shove through a mandatory lead abatement clause, that most HO's wold simply do the work themselves and they could not stop that. Trust me Inspectors & abatement contractors will still be needed & I don't see this taking away from your work.

While your knowledge is pretty good on OSHA, Calif. regs, & maybe the HUD standards - that is not what everyone is looking for at this moment - they want to know what it will take to meet the EPA's standards in the most efficient way possible, at the least amount of cost to the HO's (we still have to sell these projects & not everyplace is like Cali), while still protecting their assets and the HO's.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:06 AM   #536
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Bingo -
standards - that is not what everyone is looking for at this moment - they want to know what it will take to meet the EPA's standards in the most efficient way possible, at the least amount of cost to the HO's (we still have to sell these projects & not everyplace is like Cali), while still protecting their assets and the HO's.


I'm still working on a article to help exactly what you are talking about. Be patient I got a D in college English. I'ts not earth shattering but a few tips to make the work go faster from man hours and set-up from a former lead abatement workers point of view.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:37 AM   #537
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


My company is and will be compliant to the rule, not a law, a rule.

We as a group would do best by sharing our best work practices and experiences through this forum.

Then on to the next rule.
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:10 PM   #538
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


The honest and competent people in any business, from plumbing, to consulting, to engineering, to preaching, have always had to worry about the crooks. However, as one guy on this or another thread here pointed out, he got a job the others missed by bring up lead with the home owners. RRP can turn out to be another way to convince potential clients/customers that your company is the better choice, becoming another tool to use agaonst the crooks.

The key fact to remember is that lead paint is not everywhere. Many buildings built before 1978 have none. I am quite sure that it is most buildings in California, and think it is most buildings throughout the USA. The American Healthy Homes Survey of December 15, 2008 for US EPA reports lead paint in:

29% of homes in the west
28% of homes in the south
39% of homes in the mid-west
50% of homes in the northeast

2% of homes built 1978 - 2005
24% of homes built 1960 - 1977
66% of homes built 1940 - 1959
86% of homes built before 1940

The EPA data omits one key fact we have observed - even in buildings where lead paint is found, it is usually on just one or a few items, NOT everywhere.

Once a proper XRF lead survey has been done, the owners, future owners and contractors working on those buildings where no lead-based paint is found will not have to worry about lead. For small projects, assuming that lead is present is probably the fastest and least expensive approach. For larger projects, an XRF survey is surely the best approach, as the cost (time, materials, procedures) of assuming that lead is present in all of teh materials to be disturbed becomes much higher.

Some assumptions are safer than others. For example, whenever we see narrow board siding (roughly 3" reveal) on a building, we know it is almost certain to be coated with lead paint. In that case, testing it would be a waste of money.

I understand the "scarlet letter" concerns, but have never seen such a thing actually happen. I'd love to buy an apartment building well below market just because some lead paint was present, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for such an opportunity!
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:30 PM   #539
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Maybe a better strategy in all this would be to require xrf testing when a pre-78 home is sold and offer a tax incentive as well for HO's to test
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:47 PM   #540
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Maybe a better strategy in all this would be to require xrf testing when a pre-78 home is sold and offer a tax incentive as well for HO's to test
I'd like that, alhough many people in my industry would hate me for saying so, as they want to drag-out worrying about this stuff.
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