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New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This

 
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Old 09-09-2009, 12:26 PM   #21
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Anyone have an idea about the certification courses costs? I wonder if that's going to be a racket for the trainers. Will it be monopolistic or will there actually be competition in their pricing?

$200/year isn't a big deal to be certified. $2000/year is.

I'm still trying to get a grasp of the scope of what falls under this new rule. While I plan on getting certified, I wonder what this will do to my subs. Does my shower glass guy need to be certified because he drills 4 holes in the wall? Since I'm technically a GC, does that mean by being certified myself, as long as I'm there, they don't need to be certified? I mean I know my drywall guy won't get certified. He's a 1 man show and is very close to retirement.

I assume if I supply the subs with a freshly demo'd room, they shouldn't have to be certified as all the materials they'd be working with would be new. But it's the rooms that don't get completely demo'd that will be a problem. I suppose time to start making calls...
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:44 PM   #22
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Bump

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrWright View Post
I'll be going through certification with my people in October, but from what I've already heard we're not talking about a small increase here.
How did that go, Chris? What sort of time, cost and complexity is involved in the training?
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:57 PM   #23
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrWright View Post
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...ged-with-fraud



The sad and likely truth is that only those of us who operate professional businesses and play by the rules will be affected by this. Has anyone heard anything about where enforcement is going to come from for these new requirements?

?"
So use that to your advantage. Ask the customer, "Have the other companies told you about this?" If not " What else haven't they told you?"
Cast a shadow of doubt and drive it home. Tell them it's federal law and you oblidged to inform them of this. It's their right to know. Then explain how you, the professional, will handle the clean up, notification, and lead testing necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Anyone have an idea about the certification courses costs? I wonder if that's going to be a racket for the trainers. Will it be monopolistic or will there actually be competition in their pricing?

$200/year isn't a big deal to be certified. $2000/year is.

...
$550 for a firm/renovator combined
http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/firmapp.pdf
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:58 PM   #24
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


I went through the class yesterday, and I'm still trying to get my head around all of the ramifications.

Suffice to say, if you're a contractor of any trade that does work in pre-1978 houses, apartments or child-care facilities this is GOING TO AFFECT YOU. Even if you think the pre 1978 houses you work in don't have lead--you'll still have to get the training and comply on the paperwork end.

This document tells the story in detail about as good as anything I've seen:
http://epa.gov/lead/pubs/sbcomplianceguide.pdf

Electricians, Plumbers, Window replacement contractors, painters, GCs.... If anything you do disturbs a painted surface--you'd better have your act together because the fines are steep, and if they can prove you knew of the rules and what you were supposed to be doing but didn't comply, they can also pursue you criminally. Enforcement is a huge dark cloud at the moment, with no one really knowing the details--and I've heard lots of different versions of how it will be handled. Ignorance of the law will not be an excuse, or so the line goes with the EPA.

The biggest joke, is that the EPA claims to have studied the cost impact and is saying that the rules will only add $35/project. Get real. If you do a whole space renovation like a kitchen gut--this will easily add $1000+ to the cost of demolition.

You can apply to be a Certified Firm before you take the class to become a Certified Renovator (I know, seems odd to me too). If you haven't scheduled yourself for a class, at least apply for your company to be a Certified Firm--this will take up to 90 days for the EPA to get back to you. You're a Certified Renovator as soon as you take the class, pass the test, and receive your credentials (comes from the firm giving the class, not the EPA)--but you still have apply to the EPA to be a Certified Firm.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:22 PM   #25
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Tell your hardwood refinishers about this, too... Lots of old varnishes, shellacs & stains had lead in them. If they're pulling up painted shoe mold--they're performing work that falls under this rule.

This stuff is important. Lead has a serious impact on the health of children and I'm not complaining about having to comply to prevent that--but if this isn't handled properly it's going to seriously hurt those of us who play by the rules. The exclusions will mean more and more HOs will be talked into pulling their own permits, since the rules don't have to be followed if you're working on your own house. It will drive even more projects underground, below the level of code enforcement, despite the heavy fines.

Property values of older homes are going to fall when it sinks in that the cost to do major renovations is going to increase significantly. Forget inner city redevelopment. Where's the thought to green impact there?

There has to have been a better way to go about this. The requirements, if followed, will add TONS of plastic to our landfills. Materials that would have normally decomposed over time will now sit forever wrapped in visqueen. Items that might have been recycled will be far less likely to be saved.

If you work on HUD homes, the restrictions are even worse... with independent testing required at the end of clean-up. I cut my teeth on those kind of projects and they are a huge benefit to depressed neighborhoods and low income families.

There are lawsuits in progress to require testing at the end of EVERY project covered by the regs--which is another big expense.

Also lawsuits to remove the option for an owner to opt-out of the requirements if no children or pregnant women live in the house.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:20 PM   #26
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrWright View Post
.....The requirements, if followed, will add TONS of plastic to our landfills. Materials that would have normally decomposed over time will now sit forever wrapped in visqueen.......
Not to worry about that here Chris.
It will go to the incinerator,
where all the lead will be pumped
into the air.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:21 PM   #27
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Im sure its because im tired but what is needed to get the EPA's approval. I got this training done twice a few years back because we needed it to work on any OECD jobs.

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Old 11-19-2009, 11:06 PM   #28
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Excellent info. Thanks.
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:49 PM   #29
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


I could be wrong, but the way I read the EPA site is that most of should only need the renovator Cert.?

right? For the fee of $300.00

Uh it gets a little
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:54 PM   #30
 
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Thanks for the heads up...I will have to get going on this...Thanks for the post
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:31 AM   #31
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Ridiculous:

"It is difficult to determine with any amount of certainty whether this final rule will have unintended consequences. However, EPA agrees that it is important to minimize disincentives for using certified renovation firms who follow the work practices required by this rule. EPA also agrees that practicality is an important consideration. Given the relatively low estimated overall average per-job cost of this final rule, which is $35, and the relatively easy-to-use work practices required by this final rule, EPA does not expect the incremental costs associated with this rule to be a determinative factor for consumers. However, that relatively low cost has resulted in part from EPA's efforts to contain the costs of this rule in order to avoid creating disincentives for using certified renovation firms, and EPA has viewed the comments received with those considerations in mind."

From page 21702 of the Federal Register, Vol. 73, No. 78, Tuesday April 22, 2008. 40 CFR Part 745
Lead; Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program; Lead Hazard Information Pamphlet; Notice of Availability; Final rule



For the average, tiny, handyman project--$35 might come close. But for most remodeling activities that number is a gross under estimation of what compliance will cost.

If you look at the results of the studies these rules were based on (page 21697), you'll notice something major missing. They didn't study the exposure from projects that were thoroughly cleaned (HEPA vacs and wet cleaning) without all of the elaborate containment protocols.

With dry vacuuming and sweeping alone, post-renovation lead levels were reduced by 95%-98%. If you simply improved clean-up, how much more benefit are you getting by having to wrap everything up and carry it through the house?

It makes no sense to me that under these rules, if I'm doing a kitchen for example, I don't have the option to remove debris through a window--but must instead carry it through the house.

I'm not disputing that for minor projects, the impact won't be significant. But for a major renovation to an old house--bath update, kitchen, etc.--the cost will be significant.
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:12 PM   #32
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This




Thanks for all the updates, Chris!
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:53 PM   #33
 
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrWright View Post
As I hope you've all been following, come April 2010 anyone who does any work in a house built prior to '78 will have to be certified in the new lead based paint regs (get caught and its a $30,000+ fine per day, per occurrence).
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. From what I read certification is only required if all 3 conditions are met:

1. The house was built before 1978
2. The house is painted with lead paint.
3. The contractor will disturb the paint.

Not all houses painted before 1978 have lead paint and most that did have been remodeled, repainted, etc. A roofer for example would not need to be concerned about this.

I'm sure I could work 50 more years and never be subject to this law, and I seriously doubt there's going to be any serious enforcement anyway. The reason so many of you can't find classes, is that outside of this forum, nobody is planning to get certified.

Some senator somewhere pushed this bill through congress so that he could look like he achieved something during his term, it's a joke. How many times have we seen similar legislation that sounded grand but was quickly forgotten? Hint: California certified electricians....
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:08 PM   #34
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinsco View Post
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. From what I read certification is only required if all 3 conditions are met:

1. The house was built before 1978
2. The house is painted with lead paint.
3. The contractor will disturb the paint.
Yes, but if you are working in a house pre-1978 and you're disturbing the paint, I believe it needs to be proven the paint doesn't contain lead (eg. testing).
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:17 PM   #35
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Yes, but if you are working in a house pre-1978 and you're disturbing the paint, I believe it needs to be proven the paint doesn't contain lead (eg. testing).
Correct - it either gets tested or you assume it automatically is lead paint & work accordingly, including the signage, protection, etc...
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:06 PM   #36
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Think careful before you don't get the cert. Yes it's probably a joke as enforcement goes and yes it's probably a congressman's pet project.

I'm sure that it's not as cutthroat as it is here in MI for contractors but when you go to bid on project x and you get it I guarantee up here the guy that doesn't get the bid who has the cert will check to see if you do.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:01 PM   #37
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


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Thanks for all the updates, Chris!
Ditto-Thanks Chris!
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:17 PM   #38
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinsco View Post
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement. From what I read certification is only required if all 3 conditions are met:

1. The house was built before 1978
2. The house is painted with lead paint.
3. The contractor will disturb the paint.

Not all houses painted before 1978 have lead paint and most that did have been remodeled, repainted, etc. A roofer for example would not need to be concerned about this.

I'm sure I could work 50 more years and never be subject to this law, and I seriously doubt there's going to be any serious enforcement anyway. The reason so many of you can't find classes, is that outside of this forum, nobody is planning to get certified.

Some senator somewhere pushed this bill through congress so that he could look like he achieved something during his term, it's a joke. How many times have we seen similar legislation that sounded grand but was quickly forgotten? Hint: California certified electricians....
You are correct--the average project for an electrician, plumber, roofer, etc. would not involve work that would fall under the new rule. However, all of those trades perform work at some point or another that involves the disturbance of painted surfaces. If you're a contractor of any trade that works in pre-1978 homes, you should at least familiarize yourself with the rule.

Angus and Sean are correct, as the rule is being taught in the EPA Certification Class. If it is a pre-1978 house, you have to prove there is no lead through testing--or assume there is lead and follow lead-safe practices (if you are disturbing more than 6 square feet per room interior, or 20 square feet per side exterior.)

Here's the bare minimum on enforcement:

A kid is diagnosed with lead poisoning. The trail of culpability will start with any contractors that have worked on the house. If the work disturbed paint, they'll visit the contractor and check for certification and the required paperwork from the project. You can guess where that's going to go. If all your "I"s aren't dotted, and "T"s crossed--you will pay. Civil fines of $32,500 per occurrence--plus criminal fines of another $32,500 and jail time if they can establish you knew what you were supposed to be doing and didn't.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:30 PM   #39
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


A couple of things. How to bid? Remodeling a pre 78' house your saying that I have to pay for a test? If not assume lead and use lead safe practices. Either of those options raise a bid price hundreds if not thousands of $. I forget what a xrp test for lead is but it's a bunch.

Second, insurance. I got out of the lead business because of insurance. Will the state require hazardous material insurance? Up here it's 5,000 a year extra.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:32 PM   #40
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Re: New EPA RRP Rule Takes Effect April 2010--ALL Trades Need To Understand This


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulie View Post
A couple of things. How to bid? Remodeling a pre 78' house your saying that I have to pay for a test? If not assume lead and use lead safe practices. Either of those options raise a bid price hundreds if not thousands of $. I forget what a xrp test for lead is but it's a bunch.

Second, insurance. I got out of the lead business because of insurance. Will the state require hazardous material insurance? Up here it's 5,000 a year extra.
The RRP rule allows for the stick test--but as I'm sure you know that test doesn't work on drywall or plaster so unless you spring for the xrp or a lab chip test...

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