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-   Lead RRP Discussion (https://www.contractortalk.com/f115/)
-   -   EPA RRP Question? (https://www.contractortalk.com/f115/epa-rrp-question-77625/)

griz 04-29-2010 09:20 PM

EPA RRP Question?
 
This question came up during a discussion with architect today. If the GC has the EPA RRP cert do any subs on the job need the EPA cert? Thanks, Griz.

ApgarNJ 04-29-2010 09:52 PM

if the subs are there during the demo phase when the lead paint is being disturbed, then yes, or if they are doing some of the demo themselves, then yes, the subs need to be certified as well.

griz 04-29-2010 09:57 PM

Even if the GC is on the job?

ApgarNJ 04-29-2010 10:18 PM

yes. The certified renovator can only train his employees, the subs are not his employees. so therefore the subs must be certified.

SLSTech 04-29-2010 10:30 PM

WRONG - all firms must be certified (i.e. - the form you send to the EPA with $300) - there only needs to be one Certified Lead Renovator of record (CLR) that verifies and trains all the other workers - who it is, or whom they work for does not matter to the EPA.

This applies to the EPA governed states - if your state took over the program, well thats another story

XanadooLTD 04-29-2010 11:00 PM

:thumbsup: true dat.

ApgarNJ 04-30-2010 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLSTech (Post 928417)
WRONG - all firms must be certified (i.e. - the form you send to the EPA with $300) - there only needs to be one Certified Lead Renovator of record (CLR) that verifies and trains all the other workers - who it is, or whom they work for does not matter to the EPA.

This applies to the EPA governed states - if your state took over the program, well thats another story

That is not what we were told. I will check the REG. We asked that specific question at the course I took and the answer was what I listed above. That you can train your workers only that are employed by your firm. not a sub that has his own employees.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have to find the specific area in the REG where it clears this up.

if you are right, then that is great.

BCConstruction 04-30-2010 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApgarNJ (Post 928497)
That is not what we were told. I will check the REG. We asked that specific question at the course I took and the answer was what I listed above. That you can train your workers only that are employed by your firm. not a sub that has his own employees.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I have to find the specific area in the REG where it clears this up.

if you are right, then that is great.


you may be right. My Mate went and took the course with his subs. They were told that they also had to take the course even if he was on site all day. But as normal it's seems unclear and this kind of stuff needs to be clear.

eastend 04-30-2010 08:03 AM

the certification statement of the firm certification form states that the firm will only EMPLOY qualified individuals to conduct lead safe....
and the firm and its employees shall follow...

Sounds like a certified firm must hire/employ a certified renovator to be in charge of the lead paint related activity. Which , I guess, means they are are your payroll, or you pay them in some way.
If that's true, then a CR working for a CG doesn't qualify as a CR for a sub firm.

SLSTech 04-30-2010 08:22 AM

4 days to go – Clearing up a few misconceptions about Certified Renovators

Read that & get back to me - yes it's from my blog, but it covers the regs, EPA FAQ's & the IRS

Trimmers 04-30-2010 11:55 AM

This is my interpretation of the law . Lets say SLSTECh sell a job to replace 20 windows in a house . SLS must be a certified firm , but SLS does not have to have to any LCR employed by him . SLS hires my company to install the job for him. My company must be a certified firm and I must also have a certified renovator on the job at set up and cleaning procedures. Both the GC and SC must be certified firms.


From rule
Firm means a company, partnership, corporation, sole proprietorship
or individual doing business, association, or other business entity; a
Federal, State, Tribal, or local government agency; or a nonprofit
organization.

(ii) On or after April 22, 2010, no firm may perform, offer, or
claim to perform renovations without certification from EPA under Sec.
745.89 in target housing or child-occupied facilities, unless the
renovation qualifies for one of the exceptions identified in Sec.
745.82(a) or (c).


There only needs to be 1 CR on the job this could be supplied by SLS or by my company.
Now if my company go's in and dosnt follow any rules and contaminates a house
we all three would share in the responsibility of the fines and jail time :eek:
SLS, my company and the Certified Renovator

eastend 04-30-2010 04:05 PM

I still think it's not clear that a CR working for a GC can direct the activities of a sub. I can see it work the other way around, but the cert affidavit form says must employ - and a sub doesn't employ a GC, it's the opposite.
Kinda of a gray area.
Btw the info you provide SLS is terrific; thanks for that.

SLSTech 04-30-2010 04:45 PM

eastend - no problems & thanks

now on to your question - the form fully reads:

Quote:

shall only employ appropriately qualified individuals to conduct lead-based paint activities and renovations________
(
Name of Firm) and its employees shall follow the work practice
standards set forth in 40 CFR 745.227 for conducting lead-based paint activities or 40 CFR 745.85 for conducting renovations at all

times.



Ok, now part of the crappy wording on this form comes from the "lead-based paint activities" which actually means that they are certified lead inspectors, and a few other odd terms. Once you drop that crap out and get to the legit "RRP / Renovations" part and follow up with .85 section... you will finally end up here

Quote:

745.89
Quote:

(d) Firm responsibilities . Firms performing renovations must ensure that:
(1) All individuals performing renovation activities on behalf of the firm are either certified renovators or have been trained by a certified renovator in accordance with 745.90.
(2) A certified renovator is assigned to each renovation performed by the firm and discharges all of the certified renovator responsibilities identified in 745.90.
(3) All renovations performed by the firm are performed in accordance with the work practice standards in 745.85.
(4) The pre-renovation education requirements of 745.84 have been performed.
(5) The recordkeeping requirements of 745.86 are met.


Thus appropriately qualified = certified renovator or an individual trained by one

The second bolded part just states that a CLR needs to be assigned to any applicable job that a firm works on, not where they come from, or that each firm must have there own

Does that help a little more - or just make it worse?


eastend 04-30-2010 04:54 PM

my hang up is on the word - employ- in that statement. A GC can employ a sub, but I don't think a sub can employ a GC.
So, it seems it can work one way but not the other.

SLSTech 04-30-2010 05:11 PM

You don't employ other companies - that is generally reserved for an individual you hire to work for you

You don't pay a GC or another subs SS, FICA, Medicare, UI, etc... taxes do you? No you only do that for your own employees.

wildtruffle 04-05-2014 06:58 PM

CR and non-CR on same job
 
SLSTech - wondering if you could help with this weird situation: there are two different contractors working on the same site and one is not certified and the other is (me) - and BOTH of us have been hired for different jobs there at the same time disturbing lots of lead paint........i've noticed that it's a strategic nightmare to keep our work separated. Seems too much hassle and documentation for potential liability for his work practices. Seems I would not be responsible for his work but because I'm the only CR on site we kind of have an obligation to at least keep things cleaned up. I just want to see if other CRs out there agree that it makes sense to avoid jobs like these....

SLSTech 04-06-2014 04:39 AM

Ouch - to many unknowns in this situation like the hiring, what's in contracts, what each comp. is supposed to do, etc... Technically though, the other one isn't allowed in your containment area unless you trained him to be in there. Personally I would try to get all your demo done, cleaned up, & the RRP section signed off so you can treat it like any other job. If 2nd company makes a mess after the fact, just document it.

With that, that is just my opinion & I would recommend consulting your lawyer

hdavis 04-06-2014 06:59 AM

Since the other guy could get in trouble and the HO would be, at the least, embarrassed by the other guy getting nailed, I'd expect them both to say he was working under your direction.

Never assume people are going to tell the truth.


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