CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning - Lead RRP Discussion - Contractor Talk

CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning

 
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:57 PM   #1
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CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


The Centers for Disease Control's Advisory Committee on Childhood Lead
Poisoning today, in a 11 to 1 vote, recommended that a reference value based on the 97.5th percentile of the NHANES generated BLL distribution in children 1-5 years old (currently 5 mcg/dL) be used to identify children with elevated blood lead levels.

Interpretation ...

Most likely lead poisoning will be considered 5 mcg/dl, instead of 10 mcg/dl. This will increase the number of children with lead poisoning by 450% in the US

Considering that the average blood lead level is 1 mcg/dl to 2 mcg/dl to begin with, this 3 point difference can make all the difference in the world.

It also makes the need for Lead Safe Certified Firms even more important.

good news ... bad news ... I'll let you decide
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:29 PM   #2
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Lowering the standards seems that it will increase the likelihood of blame.
FYI, after all this RRP stuff hit, I had my blood tested for lead. I figure after more than 30 years in this field and all the old buildings I worked on I figured I should get some baseline to go by. The Dr. asked me if I really wanted to know because if the test came back with a high number she was required by law to report it to NJ Health Dept. and they would want to contact me over it. I told her I didn't mind I just wanted to know.
Bottom line, I got my results and the level was barely perceptible.

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Old 01-04-2012, 10:17 PM   #3
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


i had it done too,same results...not that it really means anything other than to me
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:53 PM   #4
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Lead-based paint is not nearly as common as some mis-informed people think, so many people on this forum may not have been exposed to much of it.

Did they also explain that lead can be stored at various places in human bodies, so the blood lead test is better for measuring recent, not cumulative, exposure?
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:01 AM   #5
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


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Originally Posted by FStephenMasek View Post

Did they also explain that lead can be stored at various places in human bodies, so the blood lead test is better for measuring recent, not cumulative, exposure?
Interesting, I wasn't told that. I'm guessing it accumulates in bones????
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:19 PM   #6
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Yes. I also read reports of doctors finding it in brain tissue during autopsies of people heavily exposed.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:44 AM   #7
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Quote:
Originally Posted by TimNJ View Post
Lowering the standards seems that it will increase the likelihood of blame.
FYI, after all this RRP stuff hit, I had my blood tested for lead. I figure after more than 30 years in this field and all the old buildings I worked on I figured I should get some baseline to go by. The Dr. asked me if I really wanted to know because if the test came back with a high number she was required by law to report it to NJ Health Dept. and they would want to contact me over it. I told her I didn't mind I just wanted to know.
Bottom line, I got my results and the level was barely perceptible.
As has been discussed, a contractor may only have a few weeks after working with lead based paint to find it in their blood. So timing is important. After around 30 days (possibly more) in the blood, some of it gets stored in bones, teeth and other areas.

As Stephen has said, just because you are disturbing a painted surface on a pre-1978 home ... doesn't mean you are disturbing lead based paint. You could be working in several rooms, but only one component in one of the rooms has lead based paint. Or most likely, you work on several houses that don't have it and then come across a house that happens to have it. The only way to know if you are working on a component that has lead based paint is to ...

1. Test
2. Not wear a mask and then go have a blood test within a week or two.

I don't advise #2
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:00 AM   #8
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Also want to add.

A contractor (non-certified) comes into a home, which unknowingly has lead based paint in the component he is disturbing. The contractor may create 10,000 mcg/ft2 of leaded dust (depending on what they are doing).

The contractor leaves the AC on and cleans up with a shop vac. It spreads around into other rooms. If he is lucky, he may get 9,000 mcg/ft2 of the leaded dust cleaned up (only in the room he was working in though).

This leftover 1,000 mcg/ft2 is left behind for the kids to breath in for the next several years. Being lead dust, it doesn't just disappear.

Where the contractor may have gotten one shot (acute) of lead dust ... the kid gets whacked everyday (chronic).

Where the contractor may absorb 10% of that lead dust into his blood ... the kid absorbs 60% into their blood.

Where the contractor may have 6 liters of blood in his body ... the kid may only have 1 liter. So the contractor may elevate his blood to 5 mcg/dl, but the kid (being smaller with less blood), may be at 30 mcg/dl.

This is why a contractor can go away feeling fine and believing lead dust is no big deal. It may not be a big deal for the contractor who got 1 shot of dust ... but for the kid who gets weeks/months/years of breathing in the dust left behind ... it is a different story.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:21 PM   #9
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


I was already in the workforce when the lead paint ban went into effect.
I worked on a military base and I remember having to "clean out" our paint trailer which meant throw it almost all away. We had this stuff we called "Red Lead" which the boss said to keep some of that.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:35 PM   #10
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Quote:
Originally Posted by hiteams View Post
The Centers for Disease Control's Advisory Committee on Childhood Lead
Poisoning today, in a 11 to 1 vote, recommended that a reference value based on the 97.5th percentile of the NHANES generated BLL distribution in children 1-5 years old (currently 5 mcg/dL) be used to identify children with elevated blood lead levels.

Interpretation ...

Most likely lead poisoning will be considered 5 mcg/dl, instead of 10 mcg/dl. This will increase the number of children with lead poisoning by 450% in the US

Considering that the average blood lead level is 1 mcg/dl to 2 mcg/dl to begin with, this 3 point difference can make all the difference in the world.

It also makes the need for Lead Safe Certified Firms even more important.

good news ... bad news ... I'll let you decide
That shouldn't come as a shock to anyone--after all the CDC site also shows that the amount of children with ebll's has been in decline for every year from 1997 - 2008. That doesn't make the case for the rrp rule--but now they can lower the standards and make it appear more to their favor. That way they can create more government jobs for thier buddies--so what if it sacrifices a few contractors at least they have a cush office job because of the rule. Like they always say dont waste a good crisis--if there isn't one then create one to build support for your agenda. The opt- out should be reinstated in the rule.
I know you missed me Dean--but try and keep the group hug to a minimum---makes me blush.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:21 PM   #11
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray C View Post
--so what if it sacrifices a few contractors
Especially those who do not take the steps necessary to keep working:

1) Find and work with a good consultant

2) Make testing for lead-based paint (and ceramic tile if it will be disturbed), lead dust, and asbestos part of your contract boilerplate

3) If anyone asks about the boilerplate provisions, tell them that it is routine, and that severe penalties and common sense make it necessary, just as with building codes.

4) If testing shows a problem, submit a change order, and be happy the job just became more profitable.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:53 PM   #12
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Quote:
Originally Posted by FStephenMasek View Post

4) If testing shows a problem, submit a change order, and be happy the job just became more profitable.
Thats all well and good as long as the customer still accepts your price. As of yet i still have not got one RRP job. I didn't even go as far as testing a few of them but i warned them of the extra cost involved if i did test for lead and found it. Never heard from any of them upto yet. Lucky for me i have had other work. I'm sure theres a few people around who will go for the right guy because they are worried. but most people don't care. I'm sure a few of them i could frighten enough to go for it but its not even worth me doing the 1 or 2 i would get a year.

i wonder how many people on here who do RRP can sit back and say they have a good ROI since they started it. because if your only adding a small amount to each job like some of you say then its gotta be hard to earn that cash back to cover the extra expense of doing it.
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:34 PM   #13
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Non news until enforcement is a priority, just more burden on firms following the law.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:51 PM   #14
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


If this rrp rule is such a good thing for the public (and many proclaim the public loves it and dont have any trouble finding work) then why is it that those hoping to profit from it need the force of law to get customers to comply?? I dont have any faith in EPA or CDC after this rrp mess. I feel they were less than honest about this rule--they forgot to mention that these lead levels have been in decline for years. If the ebll's had been on the rise for years and continued to rise then thats a different story. But to push this rule through on some studies that were done years ago--and now there are current facts that show these levels have been in decline for several years straight, all at time when remodeling more than doubled. Facts trump studies any day of the week. Just ask any state (if your state is licensing rrp) or the EPA to tell you specifically how many eblls are caused by remodeling. The only answers I ever recieved is they dont track them specifically--alot of these ebll's are from toys water ground surface etc etc until they strictly identify the cause of ebll's how does anyone now the true causes? Ask your state or the EPA what they are going to do with the fine money? My state is so concerned with lead levels that the fine money goes into the general fund to support school taxes. One would think that if this is such a problem that they would at least use the fine money to educate the public about this problem that has been in decline for years. The state and EPA might as well put a sticky note on the tail of pigeon and turn it loose in Chicago for all the information they have put out about this rule. I have done three jobs where I needed to follow the rules--and all three customers called me back later and said they seen other contractors doing work on pre 1978 houses and they weren't following the rules--one customer that I had done work for years came out and told me to my face that there was a distinct price advantage to hire someone other than me that wasn't going to follow the rules. I built a relationship through hard work and honesty with this customer over the years and now because of the rrp rule and extra costs the EPA has cost me a loyal customer. And many will say that I should turn in the contractor that does this guys work. Won't bring myself down to thier level.
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Old 01-14-2012, 03:05 PM   #15
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Dropping the threshold - to encompass more children - is pure chicanery. It's just a trick to prove that the Lead Laws are needed, because the EPA knows the facts and stats show that the incidence of lead poisoning in children is DECREASING.

Heaven knows I have strong opinions, but IMHO, if a contractor who supports the EPA RRP, it's because he/she doesn't fully understand the ramifications of all the bookkeeping and penalty provisions of this insane new legislation.

With EPA RRP, the government has just handed personal injury lawyers a beautiful new arsenal of powerful weaponry to wield against small business owners, otherwise known and described as contractors.

If you get ONE homeowner who decides to "get even with you," all they have to do is call and file a complaint against you. Even if your bookkeeping is 100% flawless, it'll take countless hours to produce the documentation required to satisfy an EPA auditor. Heaven help you if there's a kid in the household with any lead in his blood.
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Old 01-14-2012, 03:47 PM   #16
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Once again, the decline was caused by the ban of leaded gasoline during a time when remodeling of 1985 (average) homes shot up. 1985 homes don't have lead based paint. So using a decline with a doubling in remodeling has nothing to do with renovations on lead based paint.

A dramatic decline in lead poisoning from banning leaded gasoline has nothing to do with disturbing lead based paint. They are two totally different issues. Where once, leaded gasoline was the primary reason ... lead based paint is now the primary reason.

Ray ... welcome back ... as I've asked before, How can you tell EBLLs from renovations dropped during this time period from that chart?

Now personally, I "believe" (no facts) that in the past few years, EBLLs from renovations has dropped. Mainly because of a dramatic decline in renovations, because of the lousy economy. Less Renovations = Less EBLLs From Renovations. But we will have to wait and see.
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Last edited by hiteams; 01-14-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 01-14-2012, 03:55 PM   #17
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


from HUD guidelines

There is substantial evidence that uncontrolled housing renovation work can cause lead poisoning. One study found that refinishing activity performed in dwellings with lead-based paint was associated with an average 69-percent increase in the blood lead level of the 249 infants living there (Rabinowitz, 1985a). Another study of 370 recently lead-poisoned children found a statistically significant association between household renovation activity and elevated blood lead level (EBL) (p<0.0001) 1
(Shannon, 1992). Other researchers have also reported cases where renovation activity has resulted in EBLs (Fischbein, 1981; Marino, 1990).
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Old 01-14-2012, 04:02 PM   #18
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


Ray & Rose

Are you all saying it is perfectly fine for a contractor to leave the house with a large amount of lead dust behind?
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Old 01-14-2012, 04:39 PM   #19
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


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...but i warned them of the extra cost involved if I did test for lead and found it.
That is exactly the mistake to avoid. If you (and everyone else who tries to make a big deal of RRP with potential clients) would simply have the appropriate contract language, most of those contracts might have been won. Certainly the cost of testing would not make a significant difference for all but very small projects.

I just checked our statistics, and 51% of the buildings built 1960 to 1977 we have tested since we started keeping detailed statistics had no lead-based paint, and 49% had very litttle. The older buildings will have more, and the older buildings in fancy neighborhoods will have the most.
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Old 01-14-2012, 05:29 PM   #20
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Re: CDC's Advisory Committee On Childhood Lead Poisoning


This is good for abatement contractors. If a child is lead poisoned an abatement contractor has to do the work.

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