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Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?

 
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Old 11-01-2014, 06:16 PM   #401
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tenon0774
Nowadays that means doing what you're told and STFU!
I agree, this is something my generation does not do well. It's not surprising, though. Gone are the days of children being seen and not heard, speaking only when spoken to. Young adults today expect an answer to the question "Why?" Maybe because their parents and teachers have been teaching them to question everything they're told for their whole lives - it's how you wade through the bull and get to the heart of the matter.

My first boss told me to STFU and do what I was told, and I did. But I learned a lot more from the guy who explained why my seemingly menial task was important, why we couldn't use a machine to dig the ditch, or why I was the only one digging, for example.

I include myself in the generation being discussed but I'm definitely an outlier. I don't fit any of the criteria except that I'm young enough to be of the same generation.

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Old 11-01-2014, 06:18 PM   #402
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Originally Posted by Agility View Post
I agree, this is something my generation does not do well. It's not surprising, though. Gone are the days of children being seen and not heard, speaking only when spoken to. Young adults today expect an answer to the question "Why?" Maybe because their parents and teachers have been teaching them to question everything they're told for their whole lives - it's how you wade through the bull and get to the heart of the matter.

My first boss told me to STFU and do what I was told, and I did. But I learned a lot more from the guy who explained why my seemingly menial task was important, why we couldn't use a machine to dig the ditch, or why I was the only one digging, for example.
Yep
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Old 11-01-2014, 06:42 PM   #403
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Originally Posted by jaws

its a dumb example.

1)most lead men make good money in my experience

2) no father will be happy his daughter is knocked up no matter who did it. Ceo of exxon or my lead man, my preference would be to beat them severely with a chain.

I suggest you raise your daughter to try and be smarter than to get knocked up, or your sons to not knock girls up. Its not that difficult. ...


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Old 11-01-2014, 06:43 PM   #404
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Originally Posted by Kowboy
.... What is not mythical is the low pay, the cyclical nature of the work, the lack of benefits, and the lack of social status for tradespersons. .
I know laborers that make more than most college grads. Are you aware that the median income in this country is 45 or 50k? That's $21.63 an hour if you don't work an hour of overtime.

$21.63 an hour is peanuts for a lead guy.
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Old 11-01-2014, 06:46 PM   #405
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agility

I agree, this is something my generation does not do well. It's not surprising, though. Gone are the days of children being seen and not heard, speaking only when spoken to. Young adults today expect an answer to the question "Why?" Maybe because their parents and teachers have been teaching them to question everything they're told for their whole lives - it's how you wade through the bull and get to the heart of the matter.

My first boss told me to STFU and do what I was told, and I did. But I learned a lot more from the guy who explained why my seemingly menial task was important, why we couldn't use a machine to dig the ditch, or why I was the only one digging, for example.

I include myself in the generation being discussed but I'm definitely an outlier. I don't fit any of the criteria except that I'm young enough to be of the same generation.
But based upon your responses, you are the exception.

Now, what you have also pointed out in your response is the inefficiency of the "contractor".

This happens.

Interesting that you have picked up on that so quickly.

You have been in the trades for;

How many years?
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Old 11-01-2014, 06:54 PM   #406
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by WBailey1041

I know laborers that make more than most college grads. Are you aware that the median income in this country is 45 or 50k? That's $21.63 an hour if you don't work an hour of overtime.

$21.63 an hour is peanuts for a lead guy.
Depends upon the region.

Is $22 per hour for a LEAD guy, peanuts?

Yes.

Is it paid for LEAD carpenters in certain regions?

Yes.

The LEAD carpenter system as spelled out by Tim Fallor, it's on the lower
end of
The spectrum.

Let loose the specters from this pandora's box.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:01 PM   #407
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Uh, oh.

Not supposed to talk about pricing.

...I'm sure this qualifies.

MOD's. Please delete all affected posts.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:02 PM   #408
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agility View Post
I agree, this is something my generation does not do well. It's not surprising, though. Gone are the days of children being seen and not heard, speaking only when spoken to. Young adults today expect an answer to the question "Why?" Maybe because their parents and teachers have been teaching them to question everything they're told for their whole lives - it's how you wade through the bull and get to the heart of the matter.

My first boss told me to STFU and do what I was told, and I did. But I learned a lot more from the guy who explained why my seemingly menial task was important, why we couldn't use a machine to dig the ditch, or why I was the only one digging, for example.

I include myself in the generation being discussed but I'm definitely an outlier. I don't fit any of the criteria except that I'm young enough to be of the same generation.
I'm not going to guess your age. At 63, mine was the first generation to have the ballz to say "never trust anyone over the age of 30".

So, how long did the rest of the crew/job wait while your boss gazed kindly into your eyes, stroked your pretty locks and explained why what you are doing is such a vital part of the job?

Yes, its important to ask why. The part that the parents of your generation seems to have left out is that asking "why" has everything to do with timing, and nothing to do with stroking the ego of Little Johnny Narcissist. IOW, the individual is not greater than the whole.

Quite frankly, I am unable to differentiate during the moments like you just described, the intent of someone wanting to learn, and the intent of someone wanting to put off the inevitable.

I never ever "say" STFU. I do say, "this is what I want, and how I want X done NOW. If you need to know more, talk to me when we have time. If you think you have a better way. that would be a good time to bring it up."
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:03 PM   #409
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tenon0774
But based upon your responses, you are the exception. Now, what you have also pointed out in your response is the inefficiency of the "contractor". This happens. Interesting that you have picked up on that so quickly. You have been in the trades for; How many years?
Almost 10 years for me, since I graduated high school. The first few years were in marine construction. I learned the basics in that industry: operating heavy machinery, using power tools, proper rigging and crane technique (and signaling), safe conditions, etc...) but I have only been doing residential work for about 7 years. The last 2 have been on my own. I worked side by side with my mentor for a few years until he told me I was ready to go at it alone.

Now we team up for big projects and I do repairs and small remodels (kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms, basements) myself. I never meant to stick with it but my phone won't stop ringing, all my work is word of mouth.

My parents paid for my college education because they didn't want me to be a lowly tradesman, I got my Bachelor's in English. Maybe someday I'll use it but this is what I love to do. They changed their opinions of tradesman after seeing what the industry did for me and how much I enjoyed working hard every day.

I probably am the exception. Me and a few other young guys on CT.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:05 PM   #410
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Originally Posted by WBailey1041 View Post
I know laborers that make more than most college grads. Are you aware that the median income in this country is 45 or 50k? That's $21.63 an hour if you don't work an hour of overtime.

$21.63 an hour is peanuts for a lead guy.
Yeah, but a lead guy is not the median construction worker.

Builder Magazine gave the average construction salary as $45,417. http://www.builderonline.com/builder...-remain-flat_o

So the average construction salary is lower than your posted median non-construction. But it's harder, dirtier, worse for your body, and societally less desirable. Often with little or nothing in the way of benefits.

The question isn't why are fewer people going in to the trades, the question should be "Why would anyone go into the trades for current pay under current conditions"?

Last edited by kfc510; 11-01-2014 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:13 PM   #411
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallTownGuy
I'm not going to guess your age. At 63, mine was the first generation to have the ballz to say "never trust anyone over the age of 30". So, how long did the rest of the crew/job wait while your boss gazed kindly into your eyes, stroked your pretty locks and explained why what you are doing is such a vital part of the job? Yes, its important to ask why. The part that the parents of your generation seems to have left out is that asking "why" has everything to do with timing, and nothing to do with stroking the ego of Little Johnny Narcissist. IOW, the individual is not greater than the whole. Quite frankly, I am unable to differentiate during the moments like you just described, the intent of someone wanting to learn, and the intent of someone wanting to put off the inevitable. I never ever "say" STFU. I do say, "this is what I want, and how I want X done NOW. If you need to know more, talk to me when we have time. If you think you have a better way. that would be a good time to bring it up."
How did you know I have long pretty locks?

In the situation I described he said something like "the machine is at another site and you can dig it faster than I can get it here. You're the only one digging because it's bad business for any of these experienced guys to waste their time digging." So that only took 30 seconds. And for the record, I still never asked why, I just got lucky with a boss who proactively explained why the dirty jobs had to be done by the lowest guy on the totem pole. I respected his honesty and understood that I was there to fill that role.

Sometimes it does take a little time to explain why it has to be the way it is to a new guy, and that could hold back the rest of the team for a few minutes. It's worth it in a lot of cases.

But I also agree with you, sometimes people are just putting off the inevitable task they've been assigned. I lost my temper with a lazy worker when I was a lead in my marine construction gig. He asked why too many times and had all sorts of complicated ideas to make the job easier and it was all because he was trying to run out the clock, so I fired him on the spot and did the tasks myself.

Last edited by Agility; 11-01-2014 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:38 PM   #412
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Originally Posted by Agility



Sometimes it does take a little time to explain why it has to be the way it is to a new guy, and that could hold back the rest of the team for a few minutes. It's worth it in a lot of cases.

But I also agree with you, sometimes people are just putting off the inevitable task they've been assigned. I lost my temper with a lazy worker when I was a lead in my marine construction gig. He asked why too many times and had all sorts of complicated ideas to make the job easier and it was all because he was trying to run out the clock, so I fired him on the spot and did the tasks myself.
Precisely!
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:51 PM   #413
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


Again i'll ask why you guys are so hung up on the wage thing?? Never and I mean NEVER did I say anything about that. And Smalltownguy, you play the example so well to what i'm talking about. Old gruff guy, out there me tarzan you jane, my way or i'll piss myself and go back to the adult home and complain about the youngins on my yard. Get over yourself, its pathetic. Myself, I am out there looking, reading, questioning, trying to get all the knowledge I can. I do side jobs, ask a youngster to help you with this new fangled technology called a computer and look at my previous posts and you will see that I wanted to get experience so I came here to the "HOLY" grail of all that's construction and was told to not worry about it. SO I went and got tools, I even asked what ones I should buy to which again I got too bad for you. I did get some good advice which I took and ran with. I have worked side jobs all summer, but while I was doing that I was trying to get on a crew to maybe just maybe learn from those that did it before me.
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:02 PM   #414
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Yeah, but a lead guy is not the median construction worker.

Builder Magazine gave the average construction salary as $45,417. http://www.builderonline.com/builder...-remain-flat_o
I realize median and average aren't the same thing, but this says median salary overall in the U.S. is around $52,000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

(If you take construction jobs out of that the median non-construction salary would be even higher, since construction jobs are a lower paying chunk of all the jobs. So median non-construction might be $53 or $54k.)

So the average construction salary is maybe 10-15% lower than average non-construction. But it's harder, dirtier, worse for your body, and societally less desirable. Often with little or nothing in the way of benefits.

The question isn't why are fewer people going in to the trades, the question should be "Why would anyone go into the trades for current pay under current conditions"?

that wiki link is for median HOUSEHOLD income. most households these days have 2 incomes. this isn't 1950. so the median construction income is very competitive with other industries. just not if you want your wife to sit at home and eat bon-bons between driving her BMW to salon appointments.
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:07 PM   #415
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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that wiki link is for median HOUSEHOLD income. most households these days have 2 incomes. this isn't 1950. so the median construction income is very competitive with other industries. just not if you want your wife to sit at home and eat bon-bons between driving her BMW to salon appointments.
Ok, fair enough, I'll edit my previous post to reflect that. So what source have you got for median (or average) *personal* income for 2014?

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Old 11-01-2014, 08:11 PM   #416
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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that wiki link is for median HOUSEHOLD income. most households these days have 2 incomes. this isn't 1950. so the median construction income is very competitive with other industries. just not if you want your wife to sit at home and eat bon-bons between driving her BMW to salon appointments.
And in any case, the Builder article still points out that the average construction salary is not going up.
http://www.builderonline.com/builder...-remain-flat_o

If there were truly a shortage of workers, then wages should go up. They aren't. What's your explanation for that?
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:17 PM   #417
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Again i'll ask why you guys are so hung up on the wage thing?? Never and I mean NEVER did I say anything about that. And Smalltownguy, you play the example so well to what i'm talking about. Old gruff guy, out there me tarzan you jane, my way or i'll piss myself and go back to the adult home and complain about the youngins on my yard. Get over yourself, its pathetic. Myself, I am out there looking, reading, questioning, trying to get all the knowledge I can. I do side jobs, ask a youngster to help you with this new fangled technology called a computer and look at my previous posts and you will see that I wanted to get experience so I came here to the "HOLY" grail of all that's construction and was told to not worry about it. SO I went and got tools, I even asked what ones I should buy to which again I got too bad for you. I did get some good advice which I took and ran with. I have worked side jobs all summer, but while I was doing that I was trying to get on a crew to maybe just maybe learn from those that did it before me.
Well, huh.
Been saying the same since I was, oh I don't know - younger than you.

Weren't you the one who said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by apzimmermann
I know that you guys will be foaming at the gums to jump all over me, its cool I can take it, see I was brought up to have thick skin and know what I can and can't do, try to make tomorrow better for myself no matter what, and to live by honor, courage and commitment, which I learned defend this country so you guys can hammer me on this post.

Want a hankie?
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:18 PM   #418
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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I have worked side jobs all summer, but while I was doing that I was trying to get on a crew to maybe just maybe learn from those that did it before me.
I'm a tad older than Smalltownguy, and surprise, I share his opinion. We've been through the School while you're still matriculating.

Step back and take a long hard look in the mirror. If you were one of us crusty old buzzards, would you leap at the chance to hire you and teach you? I can assure you, we love the opportunity to do so with someone who we feel is going to pick up the ball and run with it.

But for some reason you're not even getting to the initial evaluation stage (grunt worker). Why do you suppose that is?
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:20 PM   #419
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Re: Why Is There A Shortage Of Tradesmen?


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Originally Posted by kfc510
Ok, fair enough, I'll edit my previous post to reflect that. So what source have you got for median (or average) *personal* income?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perso..._United_States
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Old 11-01-2014, 08:24 PM   #420
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So...
What's the personal average salary in 2014 then?

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