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What Did You Learn Today?

 
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:26 PM   #1
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What Did You Learn Today?


Each day I try to learn something new. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

Today (yesterday) I learned that if you have really good base cabinets and want to secure them so they won't tip over, use these:




A question I do have though is, "Has it ever been an acceptable practice to notch floor joists and stick them into a notched beam?" Is this a pre-nail technique that was carried over a generation?
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:34 PM   #2
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


I'd have to see it but I know we used to nail a cleat on and notch the joists to rest on that cleat. Then that became taboo and we had to switch over to hangers for everything.

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Old 01-07-2012, 03:52 PM   #3
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Yes a pic would be nice.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:12 PM   #4
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Will,
This doesn't have a cleat, but a support was added below the beam which (unintentionally) supported a few of the bottom of the notched joists. i was just wondering if the way of doing things carried over into a new era (affordable nails).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post
Yes a pic would be nice.
OK OK OK....

This is a 'nail era house'. (no cleat as mentioned above)



Here's a newer house.



The last pic of the newer unit, other end of these joists are also notched but tied into a three 2x8 beam, with cleats--and home made angle iron strongties on the sides. It's interesting that they knew to provide undersupport on the beam side, but still notched the perimeter and let it hang.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:39 PM   #5
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


I have been told by more than more than one engineer that the joist is only as strong as it's notched point. For example if a 2X8 is notch 1 1/2" to sit on something it is only as strong as a 2X6. Is that a concrete beam the joist are notched in?
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:50 PM   #6
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post
I have been told by more than more than one engineer that the joist is only as strong as it's notched point. For example if a 2X8 is notch 1 1/2" to sit on something it is only as strong as a 2X6. Is that a concrete beam the joist are notched in?
Strong being overall shear. Deflection would be of the greater number though. So those joists there in the second picture would have the shear strength of a 2x8 but the deflection rating of a 2x10. Or at least that is my understanding of it.

Was trying to find a picture of what I am talking about, they do it on over passes in jersey all the time. Thick in the middle and this on the ends.

Last edited by WildWill; 01-07-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:10 PM   #7
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post
Is that a concrete beam the joist are notched in?
cinder block. ...
I've often wondered if notching wasn't done in order to control the elevation of the wood, so the top will be a flat plane for the subfloor because there would be more variance in the wood sizes back then.

Last edited by CO762; 01-07-2012 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:32 PM   #8
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWill View Post
Strong being overall shear. Deflection would be of the greater number though.
So then the closer the load is to the bearing wall/beam, the greater the chance of shear, right? The lever of distance would decrease the downwards force, making it more upwards (deflection reducing any shear force)?

Quote:
Was trying to find a picture of what I am talking about, they do it on over passes in jersey all the time. Thick in the middle and this on the ends.
This? The other end where the cleat is nailed onto the laminated beams:



The band joist isn't on top of the sill, it's on the outside of it. So they had to notch the perimeter side of the joists to match the (lowered) band joist. The inside beams were of the same dimemsion and they were smarter than to try and only toenail them, so they notched and cleated it. Everything is the same size.

This must have been transitional thinking as it wouldn't be that much more of a mental move to just put the joists on top of all. Interesting going back in time mentally.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:41 PM   #9
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


I learned that highlighting cells in excel will show you their added up total at the bottom of the screen. Nifty!
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:28 PM   #10
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CO762 View Post
So then the closer the load is to the bearing wall/beam, the greater the chance of shear, right? The lever of distance would decrease the downwards force, making it more upwards (deflection reducing any shear force)?
It is my understanding that statement is correct. If for no other reason then this. When there is a beam and it is supported on both ends, the two ends have a shared weight load. Now if you place a load on the beam in the middle then both ends are still sharing the load equally. The closer the load is moved towards one end the more weight that end is taking thus becoming closer to shear.


For example, you have a beam that can withstand 90lbs of weight before shearing. With the weight of 100lbs in the middle of the beam each end is carrying 50lbs. As the weight moves closer to the end the weight distribution changes. At some point there will be 100lbs right over the shear point and the beam will shear.

It's my limited understanding that beams rarely break due to over deflection. It is normally shear at the wall line.

But then again, what the heck to I know, thats why I call the engineer.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:11 AM   #11
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Nothing.

I tore out a 3" cast waste stack, snaked a 1 1/4 galvanzed line that I couldn't get to (to tear out) and replaced everything else (main floor bath) with plastic. The lady's toilet now flushes properly, for the first time since they bought the house.

Just another happy camper...

Yes...I sometimes have to touch "other people's poo" to make a buck

Such is life...
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:32 AM   #12
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Well nothing new...
Life is short, I worked too many hours when i was younger...

and............................................... ...........

some bars start HAPPY HOUR before 5PM...
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:36 AM   #13
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


That 30k and no benies is the new 70k with benies.

Does that count?
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:11 AM   #14
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hilldawg View Post
I learned that highlighting cells in excel will show you their added up total at the bottom of the screen. Nifty!
Yes... and they don't have to be in a "range" or anything. They can be individual cells all over the place.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:17 AM   #15
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hilldawg View Post
I learned that highlighting cells in excel will show you their added up total at the bottom of the screen. Nifty!
I didn't know that either.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:25 AM   #16
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWill View Post
It's my limited understanding that beams rarely break due to over deflection. It is normally shear at the wall line.
and that make sense because the force is spread out over a larger area and also is flexible, where the wall/beam is fixed so they can't absorb any movement/energy.

Quote:
But then again, what the heck to I know, thats why I call the engineer.
Engineers generally make lousy participants in cocktail conversation due to their brain quantifying everything. I think people in the trades under rate themselves and their abilities to conceptualize things to know if it should work or not. Some of us don't even need no stinkin tape measure!
That's why we get invited to more parties.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:29 AM   #17
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrorron View Post
Yes...I sometimes have to touch "other people's poo" to make a buck
"waste money".

Doesn't have to necessarily be "today"....today could have been last week, etc.

Last edited by CO762; 01-08-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:30 AM   #18
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hilldawg View Post
I learned that highlighting cells in excel will show you their added up total at the bottom of the screen. Nifty!
That was yesterday....so now today you can learn that there is a whole list of things you can show at the bottom...

average, sum, minimum, maximum, count....plus some more that are more about setup and such

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Old 01-08-2012, 09:33 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jproffer View Post
That was yesterday....so now today you can learn that there is a whole list of things you can show at the bottom...

average, sum, minimum, maximum, count....plus some more that are more about setup and such

Please tell us where to click for some of this?

Right click on the lower bar, the status bar, and a "check" menu pops up.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:40 AM   #20
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Re: What Did You Learn Today?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaFramer View Post
That 30k and no benies is the new 70k with benies.
Government math?

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