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Old 12-24-2013, 11:57 AM   #121
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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Old 12-24-2013, 12:22 PM   #122
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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Originally Posted by kuke0020
I own a fence installation company. I had a subcontractor install a $7000.00 job for me. The customer called the day of install and wanted another $5000 worth of fence. The sub undercut me and installed the job. I currently owe this sub $1200 for another job. What would everyone do?
I'm sorry to hear this, unfortunately there are no business ethics anymore. My suggestion is, return him his business card and tell him good luck! You need to find yourself another sub.
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:36 AM   #123
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Over the years I have had lots of subs go around me and work directly for the HO. I have had HO's ask me for the sub's telephone and were quite up front why they wanted it.
I have been VERY clear to my subs about taking work from a client.

The gist of it is:
if they are on MY site, they got there becuase I marketed the job, spent the money to get the lead, made the sale, and am entitled to all the profit.
If they are approached while on the site by a neighbour or passer/by, again, the sub is there only because of MY efforts, so that neighbour is MY lead.
If, on the other hand, they are driving down the street somewhere other than my client's street, and someone flags them down, then that is legitimately their lead, for which I expect nothing.
I also tell the sub that they will get a commission on top of labour for any work sold in my name above and beyond the contract.
Further: as a convenience to me; if they do a small job for the homeonwer, such as adding a gate or maybe a planter, as long as it is less than $500, I don't mind if they do it. My time is more valuable than running out to a client for $500. The only thing I ask is that they show me a receipt for the material they bought for this gate/whatever so that I know it doesn't come out of my leftovers.
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:48 AM   #124
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence & Deck
Over the years I have had lots of subs go around me and work directly for the HO. I have had HO's ask me for the sub's telephone and were quite up front why they wanted it. I have been VERY clear to my subs about taking work from a client. The gist of it is: if they are on MY site, they got there becuase I marketed the job, spent the money to get the lead, made the sale, and am entitled to all the profit. If they are approached while on the site by a neighbour or passer/by, again, the sub is there only because of MY efforts, so that neighbour is MY lead. If, on the other hand, they are driving down the street somewhere other than my client's street, and someone flags them down, then that is legitimately their lead, for which I expect nothing. I also tell the sub that they will get a commission on top of labour for any work sold in my name above and beyond the contract. Further: as a convenience to me; if they do a small job for the homeonwer, such as adding a gate or maybe a planter, as long as it is less than $500, I don't mind if they do it. My time is more valuable than running out to a client for $500. The only thing I ask is that they show me a receipt for the material they bought for this gate/whatever so that I know it doesn't come out of my leftovers.

Good luck my man! I wish you could find ethical people to have this kind of behavior. In a recession everyone is hungry!
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Old 12-25-2013, 10:03 AM   #125
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


HEre's something else to be worried about.
Some years ago, my then partner and I took a contract to build 250 custom decks in a new subdivision. These were all fairly large, all different, and were built over a three year period.
The first year all went well, and most of the homeowners upgraded their decks, so in addition to whatever I was getting from the builder, I got anywhere from $1000 to $10,000 more from the HO.
about 1/2 way through the third season, we noticed that we weren't getting any upgrades, so I drove up to the site (about 100 km or 60 miles) away. We hadn't been there much becuase for more than 2 years all had gone well, and the site super was a buddy. To my horror, I found that the installer who had been doing all the work, including upgrades, had taken it upon himself to do all the changes and keep the money for himself. In fact one upgrade was $11,000.
The installer was mystified about my anger, becuase in his mind he wasn't stealing. He had all the receipts for all the extra material he bought, and in fact I had not paid for any of the extras that he did on his own. He could not understand that those were MY upgrades he was selling. Against my judgement my partner thought we should keep him becuase he was a good installer, and eventually things returned to normal.
about 6 months later, one of the homeowners sued US, becuase they weren't satisfied with the work done. Even though we went to court over it, the judge determined that since the installer worked for me on the original deck, it was reasonable, even though the HO paid for the extra directly to the installer, in cash, and not to me, for the HO to think that the work was actually going through my company and not privately to the installer.
On top of that, Worker's Comp came in to do a routine site assessment to the builder, and while they were at it decided that we had to pay premiums based on what the installer put out in labour on this extra work.
On top of that, the builder, who declined to take a percentage of the upgrades as a favour to me, decided that we had to honour the warranty on everything this installer did even if it was on his own.
Big mess.
We eventually made up for some of the lost profit, but at the time it was quite a blow.
So be very careful about subs who steal work from you
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Last edited by Fence & Deck; 12-26-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 12-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #126
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence & Deck View Post
HEre's something else to be worried about.
Some years ago, my then partner and I took a contract to build 250 custome decks in a new subdivision. These were all fairly large, all different, and were built over a three year period.
The first year all went well, and most of the homeowners upgraded their decks, so in addition to whatever I was getting from the builder, I got anywhere from $1000 to $10,000 more from the HO.
about 1/2 way through the third season, we noticed that we weren't getting any upgrades, so I drove up to the site (about 100 km or 60 miles) away. We handn't been there much becuase for more than 2 years all had gone well, and the site super was a buddy. To my horror, I found that the installer who had been doing all the work, including upgrades, had taken it upon himself to do all the changes and keep the money for himself. In fact one upgrade was $11,000.
The installer was mystified about my anger, becuase in his mind he wasn't stealing. He had all the receipts for all the extra material he bought, and in fact I had not paid for any of the extras that he did on his own. He could not understand that those were MY upgrades he was selling. Against my judgement my partner thought we should keep him becuase he was a good installer, and eventually things returned to normal.
about 6 months later, one of the homeowners sued US, becuase they weren't satisfied with the work done. Even though we went to court over it, the judge determined that since the installer worked for me on the original deck, it was reasonable, even though the HO paid for the extra directly to the installer, in cash, and not to me, for the HO to think that the work was actually going through my company and not privately to the installer.
On top of that, Worker's Comp came in to do a routine site assessment to the builder, and while they were at it decided that we had to pay premiums based on what the installer put out in labour on this extra work.
On top of that, the builder, who declined to take a percentage of the upgrades as a favour to me, decided that we had to honour the warranty on everything this installer did even if it was on his won.
Big mess.
We eventually made up for some of the lost profit, but at the time it was quite a blow.
So be very careful about subs who steal work from you
I don't think we know the whole story here
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Old 12-25-2013, 10:45 AM   #127
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


I would have started sending bills to the installer that did the side work. I would have called him up each and every time a warranty issue came up for one of his extras too.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:37 AM   #128
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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I don't think we know the whole story here
Of course not.
Pretty hard to condense a year's worth of goings on down to one post on a forum. We did get the sub to pay the worker's comp, and he did some freebies for us, at to be truthful out of 250 decks we had only 2 or 3 warranty problems.
The small claims suit was insignificant. The homeowner thought he was supposed to get something that wasn't part of the original deal, and we settled for a payment to us for $250 (the homeowner lost) after the judge determined that we were responsible for the deck.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:15 AM   #129
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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Originally Posted by kuke0020 View Post
I think I'm going to just pay him and then make an example of him. What pisses me off though is I've taken care of this guy. I've paid him ahead a few times when he needed money.
Why do you think big corporate never takes care of their employees? They have already seen this kind of thing before and they know.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:18 AM   #130
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence & Deck View Post
HEre's something else to be worried about.
Some years ago, my then partner and I took a contract to build 250 custom decks in a new subdivision. These were all fairly large, all different, and were built over a three year period.
The first year all went well, and most of the homeowners upgraded their decks, so in addition to whatever I was getting from the builder, I got anywhere from $1000 to $10,000 more from the HO.
about 1/2 way through the third season, we noticed that we weren't getting any upgrades, so I drove up to the site (about 100 km or 60 miles) away. We hadn't been there much becuase for more than 2 years all had gone well, and the site super was a buddy. To my horror, I found that the installer who had been doing all the work, including upgrades, had taken it upon himself to do all the changes and keep the money for himself. In fact one upgrade was $11,000.
The installer was mystified about my anger, becuase in his mind he wasn't stealing. He had all the receipts for all the extra material he bought, and in fact I had not paid for any of the extras that he did on his own. He could not understand that those were MY upgrades he was selling. Against my judgement my partner thought we should keep him becuase he was a good installer, and eventually things returned to normal.
about 6 months later, one of the homeowners sued US, becuase they weren't satisfied with the work done. Even though we went to court over it, the judge determined that since the installer worked for me on the original deck, it was reasonable, even though the HO paid for the extra directly to the installer, in cash, and not to me, for the HO to think that the work was actually going through my company and not privately to the installer.
On top of that, Worker's Comp came in to do a routine site assessment to the builder, and while they were at it decided that we had to pay premiums based on what the installer put out in labour on this extra work.
On top of that, the builder, who declined to take a percentage of the upgrades as a favour to me, decided that we had to honour the warranty on everything this installer did even if it was on his own.
Big mess.
We eventually made up for some of the lost profit, but at the time it was quite a blow.
So be very careful about subs who steal work from you
Whew..I've heard a similar story before..
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:37 AM   #131
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence & Deck View Post
HEre's something else to be worried about.
Some years ago, my then partner and I took a contract to build 250 custom decks in a new subdivision. These were all fairly large, all different, and were built over a three year period.
The first year all went well, and most of the homeowners upgraded their decks, so in addition to whatever I was getting from the builder, I got anywhere from $1000 to $10,000 more from the HO.
about 1/2 way through the third season, we noticed that we weren't getting any upgrades, so I drove up to the site (about 100 km or 60 miles) away. We hadn't been there much becuase for more than 2 years all had gone well, and the site super was a buddy. To my horror, I found that the installer who had been doing all the work, including upgrades, had taken it upon himself to do all the changes and keep the money for himself. In fact one upgrade was $11,000.
The installer was mystified about my anger, becuase in his mind he wasn't stealing. He had all the receipts for all the extra material he bought, and in fact I had not paid for any of the extras that he did on his own. He could not understand that those were MY upgrades he was selling. Against my judgement my partner thought we should keep him becuase he was a good installer, and eventually things returned to normal.
about 6 months later, one of the homeowners sued US, becuase they weren't satisfied with the work done. Even though we went to court over it, the judge determined that since the installer worked for me on the original deck, it was reasonable, even though the HO paid for the extra directly to the installer, in cash, and not to me, for the HO to think that the work was actually going through my company and not privately to the installer.
On top of that, Worker's Comp came in to do a routine site assessment to the builder, and while they were at it decided that we had to pay premiums based on what the installer put out in labour on this extra work.
On top of that, the builder, who declined to take a percentage of the upgrades as a favour to me, decided that we had to honour the warranty on everything this installer did even if it was on his own.
Big mess.
We eventually made up for some of the lost profit, but at the time it was quite a blow.
So be very careful about subs who steal work from you
I know I'll sound like an ass, but maybe you should have been on site more. If you (or a representative) aren't around to keep you jobs in line you can expect some fallout.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:22 PM   #132
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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I know I'll sound like an ass, but maybe you should have been on site more. If you (or a representative) aren't around to keep you jobs in line you can expect some fallout.


I agree. I read just enough of that book to tell the poster didn't do what he was paid to do. If you are GC, you are responsible for the way the job goes.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:52 PM   #133
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Yeap It all stems from poor management. See it everyday.

If there is anything I have learned being in this business is nothing goes fine. If it's quiet something is going on. It's a rare occurrence when I don't stop by job everyday. Even if it's just for 3 mins.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:51 AM   #134
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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Originally Posted by kuke0020 View Post
I own a fence installation company. I had a subcontractor install a $7000.00 job for me. The customer called the day of install and wanted another $5000 worth of fence. The sub undercut me and installed the job. I currently owe this sub $1200 for another job. What would everyone do?


1 - If you have a written agreement/contract, maybe take him to small claims court. Without an agreement you can still try to take him to small claims court but the judge will have to find out who is telling the truth. Find out from small claims court what maximum claims are in dollars first.

2 - If he is your subcontractor and he gets good jobs from you, he may not want to lose your connections to jobs for him. Can you sit him down and talk to him about what is fair and what you want from him?

3 -Have him sign a contract with your company as a sub and in writing have the sub agree not to "STEAL" your customers.

For each job we have a "subcontractor agreement (1 page)" that addresses that problem.

Good Luck
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:49 PM   #135
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


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Originally Posted by Jerrie View Post

1 - If you have a written agreement/contract, maybe take him to small claims court. Without an agreement you can still try to take him to small claims court but the judge will have to find out who is telling the truth. Find out from small claims court what maximum claims are in dollars first.

2 - If he is your subcontractor and he gets good jobs from you, he may not want to lose your connections to jobs for him. Can you sit him down and talk to him about what is fair and what you want from him?

3 -Have him sign a contract with your company as a sub and in writing have the sub agree not to "STEAL" your customers.

For each job we have a "subcontractor agreement (1 page)" that addresses that problem.

Good Luck
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:01 PM   #136
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


There are three different types of non-compete agreements discussed in this thread and they are worth separating since they are being confused with each other, state laws differ and their level of enforceability of each likely differs from the others.

Agreement between...

1. buyer and seller of a business.
2. employee and employer
3. sub and gc

business sale - In NY state I am aware of a two buyer seller agreements being upheld. The timeframes listed were 2 years and 5 years and for a 50 mile radius.

employment - Again in NY I am aware of one former employee going into competition with his employer. (chiropractors) Former employee lost lawsuit and moved out of state.

contracting - Not aware of any of these outcomes but there are concepts worth discussing

A. A clause that says all inquiries about additional work for customers introduced to sub by gc shall be immediately turned over to the GC. Sub shall refrain from soliciting, discussing, bidding on or performing any additional work outside the scope of this sub-contract for customer without the express written permission from gc to sub. Any violation of this clause shall result in compensatory damages of the full amount paid to sub of any additional work performed for customer by sub plus full legal fees for gc to enforce this clause.

B. Asking for a reasonable agreement with your subs not to back door you with customers you introduced them to is very significantly different from the reason most non-competes are defeated which is C.

C. Non-competes are defeated with the reasoning the enforcer can not deny the enforcee the ability to make a living. Since the sub is free to pursue work in the same market with any prospect other than the GC's customers that were introduced to the sub by the gc, that would hardly be denying the sub the ability to make a living. I believe the case would prevail for the gc at least up to the point of any profits realized and legal fees.

The nuances are critical to grasp, clearly worth noting and may differ widely from state to state.

Last edited by PoleBarnsNY; 02-19-2014 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:49 PM   #137
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Re: Sub Contractor Stole Job


Now PoleBarnBuilder sounds like our attorney. I agree wholly with him.

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