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Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans

 
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:34 PM   #61
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


One CF install "method" I dislike in particular is the 2x4 between the joists act, secured with a couple of nails.
A standard 4" octagon box is attached to the 2x4 with drywall screws or chewing gum....and the back plate for the CF is then lag bolted to the 2x4 blocking.

Is the box rated for CF support?
Nope.
Is the install legal?
Yup.
Why?
The box is NOT supporting the CF at all.


For all the time that takes, other products are readily available that result in a lower cost to be in compliance.
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:37 PM   #62
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Ultimately, whatever the place is framed with.

In reality, those plastic "saddle" boxes Mahlere refers to work quite well for new construction, but not so well for retrofitting an existing light location. The great majority of retrofits are going to require that you add some wood or metal inside the ceiling space in order to get that kind of support [independent of the box].

New work or old, 99% of the time it's just as simple to go ahead and use a box intended for the purpose. That allows you to position the fan exactly where you want it.
I used to be so proud that
I could get blocking in thru
the original opening to fasten
a box to....
then the come out with the
retro-fit boxes with the
expansion strut, and
now any idiot can do it.
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:38 PM   #63
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post

I think maybe .1% of retrofit
ceiling fans I've seen fall on
a joist.


Would sure be nice if they
all did.
if there is access above, put a 2x4 or 2x6 brace across...been done that way for nearly as long as you've been alive (100+ yrs)
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:39 PM   #64
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
if there is access above, put a 2x4 or 2x6 brace across...been done that way for nearly as long as you've been alive (100+ yrs)
Nobody wants that!
They always want one
on the first floor of a two story.
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Old 06-06-2009, 02:01 PM   #65
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


No offense Greg....that's a great story....and w/o some sort of documentation it remains a great story, just like Goldilocks, Hanzel & Gretal, and the Easter Bunny.

No offence taken and I am not trying to tell you or anybody else stories, just sharing my opinion and my experiences, like anybody else in here.


ALL towns in NJ follow the UCC ~ it's a State mandated process to prevent confusion in this most densely populated of States.
As I am also an EC, I am issuing the challange to prove me wrong and educate me. Perhaps you can obtain a copy of the inspection document and scan/post it to help me and others?

I am not trying to prove you write or wrong. Electrical work is not my field. I simply stated the fact what I had to do and what it was required. I was hired by a HO to do the code violation repairs. The town said what they needed and I complied. The permit cost was paid by the owner. My electrician made money, I got a taste of that, Town got theirs and HO got CO... everyone is happy. If you run in to such situation, you can fight it, you can ask for copies of the code, you can call the Governor for all I care, you can even hang a fan from a bubble gum, that is your job and your customers.

I referenced 314.27 in the 2008 NEC [TY to Tin for code correction] ...which has remained unchanged from at least 2002.
Call the DCA on Monday...better still, contact Suzanne Borek at code enforcment: (609) 984-7609.[/COLOR]

If you say it is what it is, I am fine with it, but I will call just to make sure and educate myself, and no matter what they say, I will make sure any electrician who is hangin a fan in one of my homes uses a fan box (he does it anyway)


What you have shown does still NOT indicate some sort of certification from an EC for CF installations.

I am a member with the ICC and I get code updates on regular bases and that was there, based on 2006 IRC, basic code update.


I'd really like to learn...I hope you are the person who can help.

I can not help you or teach you Bro when it comes to Electrical work... that is your field. It looks likes you already know everything about this code, so after I make a call on Monday, I will let you know what they said.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:52 AM   #66
 
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Yes we do use own ceiling fan. Not only that we would love to see which one is better good in giving air and less electric consumption as well.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:13 AM   #67
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Celtic,

I called DCA this morning and spoke to Susan, the person you told me to speak with.

She verified the following:

If you replacing a regular light fixture with a Fan, you have to file for a permit....

You cannot hang a Fan from a regular light fixture box, the box must be specifically made and marked for Fan use.


In addition, any township or inspector can use his discretion when making a rule and enforce that rule, for as long as the rule is made for the purpose of consumer safety and does not interfere with the adopted codes.

I guess after all, I did educated you a little and everyone else who saw it different, and that is why this site is so great and helpful, and we can all learn new things and pass our knowledge to someone else
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:48 PM   #68
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
Celtic,

I called DCA this morning and spoke to Susan, the person you told me to speak with.

She verified the following:

If you replacing a regular light fixture with a Fan, you have to file for a permit....

You cannot hang a Fan from a regular light fixture box, the box must be specifically made and marked for Fan use.


In addition, any township or inspector can use his discretion when making a rule and enforce that rule, for as long as the rule is made for the purpose of consumer safety and does not interfere with the adopted codes.

I guess after all, I did educated you a little and everyone else who saw it different, and that is why this site is so great and helpful, and we can all learn new things and pass our knowledge to someone else
Thanks greg...you're a man of your word.
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:14 PM   #69
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


So, the absolute, rock solid,
cast iron, definitive answer is,
"It depends."
Gotta love it!
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:17 PM   #70
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
So, the absolute, rock solid,
cast iron, definitive answer is,
"It depends."
Gotta love it!


That's how I read it too...so I sent an email
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:14 PM   #71
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


The rock solid answer what you need a permit and you cannot hang a fan from a regular fixture.

Creating a rule for peoples safety that is a myth

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
So, the absolute, rock solid,
cast iron, definitive answer is,
"It depends."
Gotta love it!
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:25 PM   #72
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic View Post

What you have shown does still NOT indicate some sort of certification from an EC for CF installations.

Any answer to the second question?
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:29 PM   #73
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
The rock solid answer .... you cannot hang a fan from a regular fixture.

That is NOT exactly true greg...your posting from the State confirmed it:
Quote:
You cannot hang a Fan from a regular light fixture box, the box must be specifically made and marked for Fan use.
While no one has debated the need for a box, the means by which the fan is supported is another story.
Running a lag bolt through the fan's back plate is a "loop-hole". Now, the fan is not being supported by the box, but rather the framing member behind said box.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:46 PM   #74
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Celtic, please don't tell me you're one of this guys, who been doing this all your life and haven't learned anything yet or been doing it the wrong way all along? I hope not... Because I always read your posts and I respected your opinions. But just incase you are Bro... you should know the answer to the second question, you the electrician and if you don't know it or your level of knowledge is weak and you lack the understanding of the code... Call DCA, you know the number... they will help you out with that... I know what I needed to know and I turned out to be right all along. If you cannot deal with that, I'll send you a box of tissues because we are done here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic View Post
Any answer to the second question?
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:48 PM   #75
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
Celtic, please don't tell me you're one of this guys, who been doing this all your life and haven't learned anything yet or been doing it the wrong way all along? I hope not... Because I always read your posts and I respected your opinions. But just incase you are Bro... you should know the answer to the second question, you the electrician and if you don't know it or your level of knowledge is weak and you lack the understanding of the code... Call DCA, you know the number... they will help you out with that... I know what I needed to know and I turned out to be right all along. If you cannot deal with that, I'll send you a box of tissues because we are done here.
you do realize that you were not entirely correct...at least not in how you communicated it...but do you understand what Celtic is telling you right now? regarding the box?
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:57 PM   #76
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Lag Bolt? What about that... I did not have a discussion about the lag bolt. I was talking about a Fan box and a permit, to which you said:
" The reality is - a permit is NOT required as a CF and a luminaire are, as I have pointed out previously, "similar".
"Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box"

I am sure there is other permitted ways by code to attach a fan but that wasn't a dispute. You took me on and I proved you wrong... End of story, we move on from here. no hard feelings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic View Post
That is NOT exactly true greg...your posting from the State confirmed it:
While no one has debated the need for a box, the means by which the fan is supported is another story.
Running a lag bolt through the fan's back plate is a "loop-hole". Now, the fan is not being supported by the box, but rather the framing member behind said box.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:58 PM   #77
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic View Post
Running a lag bolt through the fan's back plate is a "loop-hole". Now, the fan is not being supported by the box, but rather the framing member behind said box.
I never liked this method either. The fan gets chenged out by a homeowner or handyman later and they just use the box screws w/o the lag bolt.
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:03 PM   #78
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Thank you Tiger, that is the whole point why they started to require permits and having a licensed electrical contractor doing the work. I guess there where to many instances where that thing came off the ceiling and whacked a few in the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger View Post
I never liked this method either. The fan gets chenged out by a homeowner or handyman later and they just use the box screws w/o the lag bolt.
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:19 PM   #79
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
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Thank you Tiger, that is the whole point why they started to require permits and having a licensed electrical contractor doing the work. I guess there where to many instances where that thing came off the ceiling and whacked a few in the head.
as you know in NJ, a HO can legally pull a permit...so there is no necessity to have a licensed EC do the work...
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:44 PM   #80
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Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
as you know in NJ, a HO can legally pull a permit...so there is no necessity to have a licensed EC do the work...
There will be after the HO tries to change out an old 3" pancake with 6 conductors in it!

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