Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans - Page 3 - General Discussion - Contractor Talk

Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-06-2009, 08:39 AM   #41
strat hd
 
strathd's Avatar
 
Trade: framing contractor , remodeler , GC occasionally
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,695
Rewards Points: 1,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Jersey did outlaw the sale of eggs for awhile.
strathd is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 06-06-2009, 09:39 AM   #42
KemoSabe
 
loneframer's Avatar
 
Trade: residential framing/siding/general carpentry
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vineland, New Jersey
Posts: 14,233
Rewards Points: 12,218

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by strathd View Post
Jersey did outlaw the sale of eggs for awhile.
And the consumption of eggs prepared with a runny yolk.
__________________
__________________________________




"Walking the fine line between production and perfection"




__________________________________
loneframer is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 09:44 AM   #43
Fentoozler
 
Celtic's Avatar
 
Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,623
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
The interpretation of this code states anything other then same or alike fixture like a fan, you must file for permit.
As stated by whom?
You???

The reality is - a permit is NOT required as a CF and a luminaire are, as I have pointed out previously, "similar".

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
Because a fan must have a fan box and it can not be attached to a regular light box because of vibration.
Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box - for this, give 312.27(D) a very close reading for the details.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg24k View Post
In addition, if a home in NJ is going for sale, when they have an inspection from the town and they see a fan, you must provide the township with a letter sealed by a licensed electrician, that he checked the box and it meets the code, if not you must file for a permit, put the fan box and have an inspection, or you can take the fan down and hang a regular light fixture.

Greg....I absolutely need written proof of this and a statute supporting your own personal OPINION here.
Anything less,.........[I'm sure you know the rest].
__________________


The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.
Celtic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-06-2009, 09:45 AM   #44
Fentoozler
 
Celtic's Avatar
 
Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,623
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by strathd View Post
Jersey did outlaw the sale of eggs for awhile.

yea, but that's only for a week prior to Halloween
__________________


The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.
Celtic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 10:02 AM   #45
Capra aegagrus

 
Tinstaafl's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeler
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,171
Rewards Points: 1,355

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic View Post
Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box - for this, give 312.27(D) a very close reading for the details.
Are you on the '08 NEC? I don't see a 312.27.

314.27(D) seems to say you're mistaken.
Tinstaafl is online now  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:18 PM   #46
Celtic's #1 Fan
 
mahlere's Avatar
 
Trade: electrical
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,582
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Are you on the '08 NEC? I don't see a 312.27.

314.27(D) seems to say you're mistaken.
it's in the '05....and you need to reread it...Celtic is correct...he just listed the wrong section...
mahlere is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:31 PM   #47
Capra aegagrus

 
Tinstaafl's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeler
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,171
Rewards Points: 1,355

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
it's in the '05....and you need to reread it...Celtic is correct...he just listed the wrong section...
I don't have a copy of the '05, but the '08 reads:

(D) Boxes at Ceiling-suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets.

Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). ...


I don't think I've ever seen a "standard" ceiling box marked as usable for ceiling fans, though I confess I've never actually searched for that info. Seriously, is that a normal spec I just haven't noticed?
Tinstaafl is online now  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:32 PM   #48
Celtic's #1 Fan
 
mahlere's Avatar
 
Trade: electrical
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,582
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
I don't have a copy of the '05, but the '08 reads:

(D) Boxes at Ceiling-suspended (Paddle) Fan Outlets.

Outlet boxes or outlet box systems used as the sole support of a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan shall be listed, shall be marked by their manufacturer as suitable for this purpose, and shall not support ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that weigh more than 32 kg (70 lb). ...


I don't think I've ever seen a "standard" ceiling box marked as usable for ceiling fans, though I confess I've never actually searched for that info. Seriously, is that a normal spec I just haven't noticed?
key words are right there....
mahlere is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:33 PM   #49
Fentoozler
 
Celtic's Avatar
 
Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,623
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Are you on the '08 NEC? I don't see a 312.27.

314.27(D) seems to say you're mistaken.


It's good to see people aren't just blindly following my advice
I honestly do appreciate that.

Tin...TY for the correction ~ the article under the '08 [and going back as far as '02] IS 314.27 ~ NOT 312.27.



However....
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
it's in the '05....and you need to reread it...Celtic is correct...he just listed the wrong section...
....you really do need to re-re-re-read it

I don't think I have ever been proven wrong on this forum in regards to NEC [everything else I have said is completely untrue ]

That's why mahlere is my #1 [maybe even only?] fan

I let you guys in on a secret:
The NEC doesn't say what you think it says ~ and it certainly doesn't say what you want it to say.
__________________


The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.
Celtic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:34 PM   #50
Capra aegagrus

 
Tinstaafl's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeler
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,171
Rewards Points: 1,355

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
key words are right there....
Ah. Okay, can't argue with that. I don't usually think "outside the box" when installing fans.
Tinstaafl is online now  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:38 PM   #51
Fentoozler
 
Celtic's Avatar
 
Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,623
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Ah. Okay, can't argue with that. I don't usually think "outside the box" when installing fans.
__________________


The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.
Celtic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:38 PM   #52
Celtic's #1 Fan
 
mahlere's Avatar
 
Trade: electrical
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,582
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


maybe this guy was correct


Quote:
Originally Posted by HandyHails View Post
I refuse to install ceiling fans w/ a given price. I have an hourly rate and stick by it. Way too many variables to consider especially when the homeowner went down to the local surplus center to purchase the damn thing.
mahlere is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:05 PM   #53
Curmudgeon
 
neolitic's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do"
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool"
Posts: 11,706
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
......sole support ........
key words are right there....
Okay, what else is the
damn thing hanging from?
__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)
neolitic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:08 PM   #54
Fentoozler
 
Celtic's Avatar
 
Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,623
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Okay, what else is the
damn thing hanging from?

I'll give you a hint...not the box ...and yet, perfectly legal.
__________________


The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.
Celtic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #55
General Contractor
 
greg24k's Avatar
 
Trade: New Home Construction-Additions-Remodeling
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,502
Rewards Points: 8,114

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


As stated by whom?
You???

My Friend, I don't do electrical work, I don't even change receptacles for my customers. I hire a licensed electrician for all my electrical work. I have done 6 code violation jobs for HO who had a Township home inspection prior to theirs home's sale. Township home inspector provided them with a list of code violations that had to be taken care of prior to issuance of certificate of occupancy. Hanging fan was one of the items on the list in 3 residences located in two different townships.

The reality is - a permit is NOT required as a CF and a luminaire are, as I have pointed out previously, "similar".

I know what the reality was in a few towns I did the work, maybe some townships do not require permit, but the few towns I did the work, permit was required. I am just stating the facts. I am not electrician, Magnetica is from NJ, maybe he will reply to this post, he is an electrician, so he is more updated on the code issue.


Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box - for this, give 312.27(D) a very close reading for the details.

I don't know what code reference you posted, tell me please what code book this is from so I can check. I have been a new home builder for the past 20 years, and I know when I layout my homes with my electrician, he always ask if there is any fans in the house. He will never mount a fan on a regular fixture box. I assume you are a licensed electrician and you know the code better then me, or maybe this is just a standard of practice to install the fan on any fixture box, but I will call DCA on Monday and I will double check what is the proper way of doing this.



Greg....I absolutely need written proof of this and a statute supporting your own personal OPINION here.
Anything less,.........

Ref. E3805, E3806 and E4001.6
The code places limitations on boxes used for supporting Ceiling-suspended fans and luminaries (lighting fixtures).

Code Basics

Requirements for boxes supporting ceiling paddle fans:

Marked by Manufacturer as suitable.
Marked for Maximum weight when supporting 36-70 LB fan.
Not permitted for fans over 70 LB.

Requirements for luminaries (lighting fixtures):

Permitted for luminaries weighting 50 LB or less.
Not permitted for luminaries weighing over 50 LB, unless the box is listed for the weight.



I don't come up with this Bro. It is NJ law and it would be much more easy to function if every Town adopts the same code standards. Unfortunately they don't. In some towns you do the work and it is the minimum requirement, in other Towns it is the maximum requirement. One town will enforce updates as they come out, and other towns don't... we learn as we go and when we learn something new and when doing work in a town that don't require the maximum compliance, we apply the maximum because it only makes us look more knowledgeable, our work will look better and safer.
__________________
I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!
greg24k is online now  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:11 PM   #56
Curmudgeon
 
neolitic's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do"
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool"
Posts: 11,706
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic View Post
I'll give you a hint...not the box ...and yet, perfectly legal.
Toggle bolts?
__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)
neolitic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:20 PM   #57
Celtic's #1 Fan
 
mahlere's Avatar
 
Trade: electrical
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,582
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Toggle bolts?
think plastic....

standard metal pancake boxes are not listed, but can be used...plastic pancakes can be used...

and truthfully, toggle bolts can be used...it depends what they are secured to...
mahlere is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:26 PM   #58
Fentoozler
 
Celtic's Avatar
 
Trade: Professional Pie and Pastry Taster
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,623
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic
As stated by whom?
You???
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg
My Friend, I don't do electrical work, I don't even change receptacles for my customers. I hire a licensed electrician for all my electrical work. I have done 6 code violation jobs for HO who had a Township home inspection prior to theirs home's sale. Township home inspector provided them with a list of code violations that had to be taken care of prior to issuance of certificate of occupancy. Hanging fan was one of the items on the list in 3 residences located in two different townships.
No offense Greg....that's a great story....and w/o some sort of documentation it remains a great story, just like Goldilocks, Hanzel & Gretal, and the Easter Bunny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic
The reality is - a permit is NOT required as a CF and a luminaire are, as I have pointed out previously, "similar".
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg
I know what the reality was in a few towns I did the work, maybe some townships do not require permit, but the few towns I did the work, permit was required. I am just stating the facts. I am not electrician, Magnetica is from NJ, maybe he will reply to this post, he is an electrician, so he is more updated on the code issue.
ALL towns in NJ follow the UCC ~ it's a State mandated process to prevent confusion in this most densely populated of States.
As I am also an EC, I am issuing the challange to prove me wrong and educate me. Perhaps you can obtain a copy of the inspection document and scan/post it to help me and others?



Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic
Actually, a CF can be mounted on standard box - for this, give 312.27(D) a very close reading for the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg
I don't know what code reference you posted, tell me please what code book this is from so I can check. I have been a new home builder for the past 20 years, and I know when I layout my homes with my electrician, he always ask if there is any fans in the house. He will never mount a fan on a regular fixture box. I assume you are a licensed electrician and you know the code better then me, or maybe this is just a standard of practice to install the fan on any fixture box, but I will call DCA on Monday and I will double check what is the proper way of doing this.
I referenced 314.27 in the 2008 NEC [TY to Tin for code correction] ...which has remained unchanged from at least 2002.
Call the DCA on Monday...better still, contact Suzanne Borek at code enforcment: (609) 984-7609.




Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic
Greg....I absolutely need written proof of this and a statute supporting your own personal OPINION here.
Anything less,.........
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg
Ref. E3805, E3806 and E4001.6
The code places limitations on boxes used for supporting Ceiling-suspended fans and luminaries (lighting fixtures).

Code Basics

Requirements for boxes supporting ceiling paddle fans:

Marked by Manufacturer as suitable.
Marked for Maximum weight when supporting 36-70 LB fan.
Not permitted for fans over 70 LB.

Requirements for luminaries (lighting fixtures):

Permitted for luminaries weighting 50 LB or less.
Not permitted for luminaries weighing over 50 LB, unless the box is listed for the weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg
I don't come up with this Bro. It is NJ law and it would be much more easy to function if every Town adopts the same code standards. Unfortunately they don't. In some towns you do the work and it is the minimum requirement, in other Towns it is the maximum requirement. One town will enforce updates as they come out, and other towns don't... we learn as we go and when we learn something new and when doing work in a town that don't require the maximum compliance, we apply the maximum because it only makes us look more knowledgeable, our work will look better and safer.
[/quote]


What you have shown does still NOT indicate some sort of certification from an EC for CF installations.


I'd really like to learn...I hope you are the person who can help.
__________________


The UD is quite possibly man kinds finest accomplishment.

Last edited by Celtic; 06-06-2009 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Ease of reading
Celtic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:30 PM   #59
Curmudgeon
 
neolitic's Avatar
 
Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do"
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool"
Posts: 11,706
Rewards Points: 2,000

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlere View Post
think plastic....

standard metal pancake boxes are not listed, but can be used...plastic pancakes can be used...

and truthfully, toggle bolts can be used...it depends what they are secured to...

I think maybe .1% of retrofit
ceiling fans I've seen fall on
a joist.


Would sure be nice if they
all did.
__________________
Put your location in your profile!
(Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)
neolitic is offline  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:32 PM   #60
Capra aegagrus

 
Tinstaafl's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeler
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 23,171
Rewards Points: 1,355

Re: Saving Money By Installing Your Own Ceiling Fans


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolitic View Post
Okay, what else is the
damn thing hanging from?
Ultimately, whatever the place is framed with.

In reality, those plastic "saddle" boxes Mahlere refers to work quite well for new construction, but not so well for retrofitting an existing light location. The great majority of retrofits are going to require that you add some wood or metal inside the ceiling space in order to get that kind of support [independent of the box].

New work or old, 99% of the time it's just as simple to go ahead and use a box intended for the purpose. That allows you to position the fan exactly where you want it.

Advertisement

Tinstaafl is online now  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Raising ceiling joists lou94stang Framing 10 05-27-2009 09:46 PM
fire rating of drop ceiling shesaremonclus General Discussion 8 04-30-2009 07:02 AM
installing a ceiling fan with light metiernan Electrical 25 04-05-2009 06:48 PM
Ceiling texture fun!! EricTheHandyman Drywall 2 04-01-2009 09:14 PM
Installing wallpaper on a ceiling ProWallGuy Wallpaper 3 06-28-2008 07:31 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?