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Propane Prices

 
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:37 PM   #41
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Re: Propane Prices


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Originally Posted by CO762 View Post
Your point would be valid....if the distributors were sitting on anything but empty tanks.

Natural gas comes from canada and they had a pipeline issue, but since then it's been fixed. The gas wells in CO/WY are being fought by the democrats. Propane is a rural thing because there's not enough density for anyone to run natural gas lines to, it's cost prohibitive. This is where your local small propane business or co-op comes in. They fill their truck, then go from house/farm to house/farm and fill the propane tank in the yard.

So storing propane takes capacity and the mom and pop propane places aren't going to have a lot of capacity to keep people's houses heated in this record setting season. Why fuel prices are going up is nothing more than supply and demand.

Heating oil for fuel is very old tech that requires piping. I don't want any fuel oil boiler, nor any of the stink, nor radiators in my house. Propane is clean burning and efficient.

Now another record cold front is in the SE and going up the sea board for a noreaster. Cold records are everywhere and it's still going strong.

I'm just curious as to how some people's viewpoints will be for generators, portable electric heaters, and food storage will be. Might be a lot more people taking their own life in their own hands. I'd bet more people will address those in their households.
I dunno, I'm thinking you are interchanging "distributors" with mom & pop dealers.

We currently use a mom & pop operation running out of my grandparents home town of Otisville. They have to drive 20 miles from their yard to mine. Most decent people I've ever dealt with.

Formerly, we bought from Northwest Energy - which was HUGE - and which is now owned by Suburban - the HUGEST. They have to drive 3 miles to my place. They are a dealer, and they also DISTRIBUTE.

Now to see if we are on the same page: Last week, 1.3 MILLION gallons were shipped by rail to Marysville MI. This explains why we have to sit for 15 minutes each day as 70-80 rail cars pass thru downtown Lapeer.

Somehow, that mop & pop outfit gets their propane - via 18 wheeler.
Mom & pop charges a fair markup.

It is the DISTRIBUTOR, who takes on those millions of gallons, and it is the DISTRIBUTOR who can be found setting price to whatever they feel the market can bear.

http://www.dailypress.net/page/conte....html?nav=5003

Quote:
and last week more than 1.3 million gallons of propane were delivered via rail to storage facilities in Marysville, Mich.
Quote:
"A lot of the propane dealers are required to pay cash upfront now with the supply shortage," said Nyberg. "This program is meant to be available to propane dealers who could use that loan assistance to purchase more propane and get it to the end user.
Like so much in life, when enough money is thrown at a a problem, it miraculously goes away.

As far as natural gas goes, Michigan is ranked 12th nationally in production capacity, and in terms of storage/transport, we lead the nation. And we are something like 17th in crude oil!

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/mpsc/rep...nergyoverview/
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:11 PM   #42
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Re: Propane Prices


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Most "mom and pop" suppliers here buy their fuel on consignment therefore the supplier sets the price and they collect a X amount per unit. Too much risk paying the going rate to fill your tank and loosing your shirt when it drops in price.
[never thought I'd say this] You canucks are lucky that you don't have our government. You have energy that you can harvest for domestic use and also, for export. We're stuck with "conservation", so our price trend line is intentionally skyrocketing and our supply is intentionally becoming constricted.

It'd be funny if americans started to emigrate to canada. I could see it. I'd probably wind up in calgary.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:23 PM   #43
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Re: Propane Prices


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Originally Posted by SmallTownGuy
I dunno, I'm thinking you are interchanging "distributors" with mom & pop dealers. We currently use a mom & pop operation running out of my grandparents home town of Otisville. They have to drive 20 miles from their yard to mine. Most decent people I've ever dealt with.
If it's Hamiltons, you're correct. They are great to deal with.

The one year I burned propane they brought out a tank and minimal fill in horrible weather.

I just needed enough gas to get me by until I got my wood boiler running.

I have since referred them to customers around my area and people farther south. They deliver and give great prices.

I'm about 50-60 minutes from one of their yards.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:33 PM   #44
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Re: Propane Prices


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If it's Hamiltons, you're correct. They are great to deal with.

The one year I burned propane they brought out a tank and minimal fill in horrible weather.

I just needed enough gas to get me by until I got my wood boiler running.

I have since referred them to customers around my area and people farther south. They deliver and give great prices.

I'm about 50-60 minutes from one of their yards.
Yup, them's the ones. All my neighbors have switched to them now, and we all regard Hamilton's highly.

Fuggitabout the price, they are just decent people.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:44 PM   #45
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Re: Propane Prices


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I dunno, I'm thinking you are interchanging "distributors" with mom & pop dealers.
There's only the manufacturer and the end user. Everything between I view as a distributor, so there can be a few different ones. To me, the only difference in distributors would be wholesale vs. retail as there are some people that are in retail distribution that can bypass a layer or 2/3 of distributors and buy right from the manufacturer/producer.

I'm not familiar with the energy sector, so I don't know if there are any price breaks relative to volume purchased. But the market demand for that commodity has skyrocketed due to, well, winter, so all pricing goes up. The biggest problem to civilization and "progress" is a certain political ideology that has forced artificial shortages on the market in an effort to create the behavior outcome they demand.

I understand the volume differences between rail and truck, but at the same time, your local mom/pop can't afford rail, don't have the facilities, nor the consumption. It's the same reason why small town hardware stores don't buy a boxcar full of nails.

The propane shortage in MN/WI/MI was due to a pipeline breakage or something wasn't it? And that's been fixed? Not a good time for that with record cold.

So what are you saying exactly? This is all some plot by someonen?
?
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:46 PM   #46
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Re: Propane Prices


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Originally Posted by CO762 View Post
[never thought I'd say this] You canucks are lucky that you don't have our government. You have energy that you can harvest for domestic use and also, for export. We're stuck with "conservation", so our price trend line is intentionally skyrocketing and our supply is intentionally becoming constricted.

It'd be funny if americans started to emigrate to canada. I could see it. I'd probably wind up in calgary.

Conservation's not the right word. Environmentalist & conservationist are not the same thing. Conservation actually believes in harvesting resources.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:49 PM   #47
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Re: Propane Prices


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Conservation's not the right word. Environmentalist & conservationist are not the same thing. Conservation actually believes in harvesting resources.
Hey....I'm trying not to p*ss anyone off by mentioning the political reality.
Want to keep this in the GD section.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:06 PM   #48
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Re: Propane Prices


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So what are you saying exactly? This is all some plot by someonen?
?
No.

I'm saying mom & pop dealers buy from the distributor.

When you are shipping 1.3 million gallons a week to a single point, that "point" is a distributor.

"We", meaning Michigan, have the largest storage and transport capacity of all 50 states - so we are well able to meet "Demand".

But the distributor sets the price, based on "perception" of availability.

And when has anyone ever seen a distributor pass up an opportunity to raise prices?

It's neither good nor bad - just supply and demand.

And its the same whether its propane, gasoline, or Velveeta cheese.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:17 PM   #49
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Re: Propane Prices


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Hey....I'm trying not to p*ss anyone off by mentioning the political reality.
Want to keep this in the GD section.
I'm actually in agreement with you, just correcting the wording you chose. I'm a conservationist & don't like being associated with the description you gave in the other post.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:00 PM   #50
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Re: Propane Prices


Within a month prices went from 2.46 to 4.97 and then back down to around $3/gallon.
That's not a shortage. That is price gouging. They all know it and they all knew it was coming.
This is from a mom and pop dealer who I have worked for and have bought from for over a decade.
Ask the drivers. They know.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:11 PM   #51
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Re: Propane Prices


The HD near me tank exchange fill the 20 pound grill tank with 15 pound of propane to keep thier price looking good. A sticker on the self serve kios states so.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:05 PM   #52
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Re: Propane Prices


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Originally Posted by baerconstructio View Post
http://www.alternateheatingsystems.c...pareFuels.aspx

I was just looking at their coal gun last night. Looking to build a 4400 square foot shop to heat it with. I can get anthracite coal for about $60 a ton delivered.

So if I looked at it right 1 cord of oak would be about 240 gallons of propane.
I followed your link, and I came up with the following for home needing to produce 48 million btu/month and not considering efficiency (wood stove might be 85% efficient, propane furnace might be 92% efficient, coal stove I don't know):

2 cord wood/month=48 million [email protected]$200/cord delivered $400
524 gal propane =48 million btu @$3/gal delivered $1572
1.714 tons ant coal=48 million btu @$60/ton delivered $103

If I can heat the home with natural gas for $150/month, I'll go with that and not worry about carrying coal and feeding a stove and the same with the wood.

But the lesson to be learned here, is why do people use propane? I can understand why you want to have it at 30 cents/gallon. But when the price goes to $1.50, why don't you just install an electric water heater and range and heat with wood or coal?

Another point of interest is how do you get this coal for $60/ton delivered?

I have often thought that if a guy could concentrate on communities on rail lines, he could go into those communities and sell them a coal stove and get it installed and deliver bricks of coal on shrink wrapped pallets and put them up close to the door of the house somewhere and give him a hod. Give him 12 tons of coal to cover 6 months and charge him monthly and go back and pick up any leftovers in May and credit him back.

Obviously this will not work in Suburbia, but there are plenty of small towns on rail lines where people have tried burning pellets, corn, wood, everything and that stinky coal may be just the ticket.

The key is to get a cheap supply, stoves that can burn it, and packaging (bricks, hods, and shrink-wrapped pallets) and have the stuff delivered to distribution points along rail lines.

My Menards will make a delivery with a boom truck or a donkey truck for $50 within about 30 miles of their store if I buy $1000. I could buy 12 tons of coal on shrink-wrapped pallets in October and have it set on a patio behind my house.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:13 PM   #53
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Re: Propane Prices


Apparently, people are working on delivering natural gas like propane. http://www.oscomp.com/could-natural-...-like-propane/
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:03 AM   #54
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Re: Propane Prices


That would be good if they can figure it out. Propane is OK, but it's sort of the only option for mainstream people living in areas that aren't served by ng pipelines. There's a need, as this thread shows.

A lot of people are using those wood boilers, but that can create a smell/haze. The best non traditional option I've seen are those wood pellet stoves. I think the fuel for that is about $200/ton.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:45 AM   #55
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Re: Propane Prices


[QUOTE="cleveman;1954881"]

Another point of interest is how do you get this coal for $60/ton delivered?

http://www.centercoal.com/price.asp

Now this is lignite coal not anthracite coal. Had a member here point out that the coal gun boiler I was looking at is for anthracite coal. So I'll have to find a boiler for lignite but at these prices it makes sense.



Did something wrong on the quoting cleveman
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:54 AM   #56
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I used your quote of $60/ton delivered for anthracite. I think Lignite has less BTU's /ton but those prices from ND in your link are pretty low and attactive. I don't know what stoker coal is. I suppose lump coal is just however the hell it comes.

It would be nice if some formed bricks were available, which would stack nicely and could be carried in a hod and not make a big mess. I think I was told in Germany that one of these bricks would burn all night.

What do you mean about the quotes being wrong?

I used to heat a 2000 sq ft house with about a wheelbarrow/day and I figure 16 wheelbarrows/cord, so 2 cords per month. Then I converted those BTU's over to coal and propane.

500 gal of propanes seems like a lot to heat a 2000 sf home. I priced it at $3, but I think if a guy was smart enough to buy ahead, he would get it for 1.50. But that would still be $750/month.

I figured 48 million btu's per month and propane has 91,600 btu's per gallon. Really comes out to 524 gallons, so I gave them a break.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:21 PM   #57
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Where can I buy coal for $60/ton? Anthricite here in central michigan is 325/ton undelivered. It just not worth it to pay that much.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:38 PM   #58
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Re: Propane Prices


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But the lesson to be learned here, is why do people use propane? I can understand why you want to have it at 30 cents/gallon. But when the price goes to $1.50, why don't you just install an electric water heater and range and heat with wood or coal?
Human nature. Most of us are inherently lazy and those of us that do go overboard are the exception. Most just use a single source because they have better things to do with their time than make redundant things. Same thing can be said as why most homeowners don't have a generator in their garage. Once they get burned, they (sometimes) work on redundancy for any future events.

Why they don't do anything now? I dunno, but I imagine between b*tching, some are doing something about it. Pain is a great motivator.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:40 PM   #59
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OK, finished shovelling the driveway (again) and quickly searched and found this:

Quote:
Problems:
1. unusually high demand
2. Late last year, the Obama administration approved a plan by energy company Kinder Morgan Cochin LLC, to reverse the flow of a 1,900-mile pipeline and use it to transport to Canada gas produced from hydraulic fracturing in Texas in 2015.*It supplied 40 percent of the gas available in the Midwest. Suppliers have said that pipeline now operates only intermittently, but it is fully operational, according to Kinder Morgan officials. It supplied 40 percent of the gas available in the Midwest.
3. suppliers have discovered a new market hungry for natural gas in Europe, and have in the last year or two increased their exports, according to Steve Sargeant, vice president and general manager for Lakes Gas Company, a propane supplier with offices in Northfield.

That would all work out well in a typical year when suppliers have time after a significant export to rebuild their supply — and thus keep prices in the United States lower. But they didn’t anticipate this fall’s perfect storm.

Selbrade said supplier Conway is seeing a 1.5 million-barrel draw each week on its propane but is only taking in 700,000 barrels. As long as that demand exceeds supply, prices will fluctuate wildly and likely continue to rise.

Gov. Dayton also declared a Peacetime State of Emergency in Minnesota on Monday in response to the severe shortage of propane and other home heating fuel supplies statewide.

[Prior to issuing the order, the Dayton administration persuaded the federal government and the state of Texas to waive shipping restrictions and ramp up transportation of propane supplies to the state.]

“I was charging $4 a gallon going out, but I’m paying $4.50 a gallon to put it back in,” Sergeant said. “(Prices) will change for sure, but it may take a couple years to get back down to what you paid this summer.”


http://www.southernminn.com/northfie...d2d553ef5.html
Looks like he's concerned about kerosene? NG?
Funny, but their "war on" coal energy and greenies saving a snail (hydro electric) may, well, quoting "make energy prices skyrocket". That's the electricity.

I think they are also going after wood burners for their emissions too.

May have to burn dung pretty soon.

Rolling blackouts? Brownouts?
Quote:
Indianapolis Power & Light said it came close to its all-time high electric generation peak-load on Tuesday, reaching 2,850 megawatts at 8 a.m. That was just short of the all-time high of 2,971 megawatts reached on Jan. 16, 2009.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2...tion-/5040321/
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Last edited by CO762; 02-13-2014 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:59 PM   #60
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Re: Propane Prices


According to the guy I talked to at alternate energy Anthracite is a hard coal. He stated the only two known places in the world it is found is Pa. and Russia. It supposedly is very clean burning. I do not know if there is a huge difference in the B.T.U.s compared with other types. There sure is a huge difference in price though. He stated picked up at a Pa. mine $150,at dealer $240 a ton. Soft coal at S.Indiana mines is $53 a ton loaded on your truck.

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