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Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.

 
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:34 PM   #121
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Here's the multitude of problems with framing air nailers, production run effiency crap. The crap doesn't hold conpared to a guy who can feel the wood while he's pounding and do a proper kiss up on the last stroke. Anyone advocating air vs hammer for framing has no idea what im talking about, its bean counter speed mentality. Nail guns are not entirely bad, but the crews are with with the air turned up way highet than it should be. You shouldn't be sinking nails with an air gun. If you care about longevity. If anything, underpowered and keep you're hammer with you to flush it up. Nail guns pulverize wood fibers to saw dust, just like a guy wgo doesn't know how to hammer and takes 20 whacks. The fibers are pulverized not split. Here's an example, take 2 sets of 2x', hammer and nail 3/4 whack, kiss up, then take other set, nail gun it. You will be hard pressed to separate the hammer nailed set, the gun, separates with minimal ease. I get it youre commercial settings, production, you'll never frame my house if youre using a gun though.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:38 PM   #122
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Aur guns are for trim....
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:59 PM   #123
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


The proof is in backing them out. Once you get a hold of the head on a gun nail the ease with which it is removed is crazy when compared to a hand drive. Even and especially a ring shank gun nail vs a ring shank hand drive
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:36 PM   #124
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


I don't know where you're working at, but here in Cali, you'll fail a framing inspection if your nail heads break the surface of the plywood on shear walls, and you'll get fired if you have to go back and set thousands of nails in shear walls.


So guys are able to adjust their nail guns to set them perfectly. Not that hard to do.

I have worked with guys who'll go over the shear panels with a singlejack, just to snug it all up tight.

Helluva lot faster than hand nailing shear.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:21 PM   #125
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


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Originally Posted by Irishslave View Post
The proof is in backing them out. Once you get a hold of the head on a gun nail the ease with which it is removed is crazy when compared to a hand drive. Even and especially a ring shank gun nail vs a ring shank hand drive
Gun nails backing out has probably never been the cause of failure in an engineered or prescriptively framed structure.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:42 PM   #126
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


I only see backing on things like a deck fascia that should have used either bigger nails or ringshank. They look like regular coated not rated for PT. Even galvi is better than plain coated.

All this seems to be solving a problem I don't have. Unless you break up gun nail strips, hand driven nails are different from gun nails.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:07 PM   #127
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


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Originally Posted by Golden view View Post
Gun nails backing out has probably never been the cause of failure in an engineered or prescriptively framed structure.
I didn't say that but a bigger diameter nail will hold faster than a smaller diameter. It's just physics. Just like a 5/8 anchor has more pull out resistance than a 1/2"
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:12 PM   #128
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


I don't use epoxy where carpenter's glue is the go to.

Same thing with nails.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:58 PM   #129
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joedesia View Post
Here's the multitude of problems with framing air nailers, production run effiency crap. The crap doesn't hold conpared to a guy who can feel the wood while he's pounding and do a proper kiss up on the last stroke. Anyone advocating air vs hammer for framing has no idea what im talking about, its bean counter speed mentality. Nail guns are not entirely bad, but the crews are with with the air turned up way highet than it should be. You shouldn't be sinking nails with an air gun. If you care about longevity. If anything, underpowered and keep you're hammer with you to flush it up. Nail guns pulverize wood fibers to saw dust, just like a guy wgo doesn't know how to hammer and takes 20 whacks. The fibers are pulverized not split. Here's an example, take 2 sets of 2x', hammer and nail 3/4 whack, kiss up, then take other set, nail gun it. You will be hard pressed to separate the hammer nailed set, the gun, separates with minimal ease. I get it youre commercial settings, production, you'll never frame my house if youre using a gun though.
Really,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Learn to use a nail gun then come back
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:04 PM   #130
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
I don't use epoxy where carpenter's glue is the go to.

Same thing with nails.
We always use the hot dip galvies down here. They grip very well.
I just did some demo about 2 weeks ago and the place was framed with spiral stainless steel 16d gun nails
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:30 AM   #131
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post
We always use the hot dip galvies down here. They grip very well.
I just did some demo about 2 weeks ago and the place was framed with spiral stainless steel 16d gun nails

Hot dip holds great, but spiral is even better. I hate to use them if I may have to demo it later, total PITA.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:17 AM   #132
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


I've been using guns for years, gramps always was a hammer guy.

No doubt a hammer can provide more finesse and properly seat sheething tight to framing members. All too often, installers lay down sheething without pressing it to the wall, where the gun won't suck it up...leaving a slight gap. You can hear that in a wall when banging on it with your fist. Same deal with sucking plate to plates tight, or slightly twisted plate to studs. That matters, and gun won't fix it, hammer will.

I remember my 3-4 man crew was framing a 10k apartment building years ago. We started when a different hand bang crew of 7 or more had their first floor walls up. We finished before them. No doubt their work was probably better, and cleaner than our young buck experience, but no way they were feeding their families well either.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:34 AM   #133
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


I think using a nail gun for sheathing is more than good enough.

With framing, I can see more value in hand pounding to control toe nails better. Sadly the labor rates would put you out of business if you wanted to slow down production to do it.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:22 PM   #134
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Im sure the customers or builders wont mind paying more for hammer built homes... haha. To the o.p. how's that tennis elbow?
edit: just realized this thread is 8 years old.. doubt will hear from the OP.


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Old 09-20-2019, 07:30 PM   #135
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Gramps laughed at me when I showed him my 22oz Estwing, but it was the right tool for the job when I was setting and stripping foundation panels. Hehe, I'll never frame with that.

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Old 09-20-2019, 10:42 PM   #136
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


FWIW, I caught that hand tools were being used in the Bahamas due to the lack of almost everything.

In a pinch, you can always pull a nail out of broken framing and straighten it. It won't be going through a gun again.
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:37 AM   #137
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Just my .02 cents for what it is worth (if anything) Obviously,I spend way more time with a trowel in my hand rather than a hammer or nail gun. I have spent more than a little time around air tools,spray guns,wrenches,grinders etc. With all that said,the best compressor and the best regulator is still effected by various variables. Some of them are length of supply hose but more often by demand at business end of hose. So in a world with one compressor,one hose,one gun and one end user,the nail gun will consistently sink nails to set depth. Introduce more guys using more guns with variable hose lengths,the dynamics changes considerably. That can be compensated for with a control valve at the base of the gun.....to an extent. And herein lies the problem,most guys will dial in the pressure at the gun for worst case scenario. Meaning low air pressure. That results in over driven fasteners as the pressure rises. If they were to do the opposite and let the gun sink the nail proud,driving it home with a single hammer blow,all would be fine.

I do not see that happen except in the rarest of situations,hence,most sheeting I see suffers from over driven fasteners,which is a code violation and if the inspectors actually knew their job,would warrant pulling out the red tags. Can nail guns deliver the same quality as hand nailing ? Maybe. In the vast majority of jobs I see no so much. So,that is why I call those framers the monkeys with the machine guns.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:11 AM   #138
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


I guy called me awhile back says his framing gun isn't working ,wants to borrow mine .He is a retired carpenter of some sort .I do not want to lend either of my framers .I talk some more and find out he is using the air regulator to set nail depth and has it set so far down gun won't shoot . I wasn't rude but he was offended when i pointed out that is what the adjustment on the tip was for .I do not think i have ever used the regulator to adjust nail depth . kinda makes sense I guess but like previous post it causes more issues then it solves .
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:27 AM   #139
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Get your air pressure wrong with this system and you have a bunch of double headed dragons running around your job site. Man,this entire system is compromised with shiners and over driven nails. You'd need a dump truck full of tape to correct the problems I typically see with "regular" sheeting let alone a system as finicky as this one.

I seriously don't know which ( if any ) framing crew I'd trust to install this system correctly. I'd virtually have to crawl around on my hands and knees inspecting all the roof and wall nails. Looks like a disaster just waiting to happen.

It is just another attempt to speed up construction,possibly to compensate for the lack of tradesmen,skilled or even marginally so.

Heck,I see way to many drywall screws that puncture the paper. The ramifications of which pale compared to setting up the sheeting for rot !

Wonder how long it will be before the fallout of this method rears it's ugly head ?


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Old 09-21-2019, 11:31 AM   #140
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Re: Nail Gun Vs. Hammer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JFM constr View Post
I guy called me awhile back says his framing gun isn't working ,wants to borrow mine .He is a retired carpenter of some sort .I do not want to lend either of my framers .I talk some more and find out he is using the air regulator to set nail depth and has it set so far down gun won't shoot . I wasn't rude but he was offended when i pointed out that is what the adjustment on the tip was for .I do not think i have ever used the regulator to adjust nail depth . kinda makes sense I guess but like previous post it causes more issues then it solves .


I'd rather loan a guy my toothbrush than my tools !

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