How To Fire People. - Page 5 - General Discussion - Contractor Talk

How To Fire People.

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-08-2018, 10:14 AM   #81
Pro
 
hdavis's Avatar
 
Trade: remodeling
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CoastalME
Posts: 24,588
Rewards Points: 18

Re: How To Fire People.


In the US If you leave negative information out of a reference, anyone hiring the person based on the reference can sue if the hire goes wrong.
hdavis is online now  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 05-08-2018, 12:50 PM   #82
Member
 
zukinut's Avatar
 
Trade: electrician by trade, general contractor, cabinet maker
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 69
Rewards Points: 100

Re: How To Fire People.


Before my father started his company, he was laid off on Christmas Eve via phone call. I was a baby He took that as his calling card to do his own thing. He also took that as a calling card to have a hard time firing people.

I once overheard him tell a guy "al, you've worked for me for years, you've made me lots of money and I've paid you well, but lately, you've been costing me money and now it's time that I cost you some money"

I heard that 30 years ago and it's stuck with me. That's how I run the company now that he's retired.

Pretty cut and dry. I hired you to help me make money, in return I give you some of it. Don't help me, I don't help you.
zukinut is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to zukinut For This Useful Post:
hdavis (05-08-2018), sparehair (05-08-2018)
Old 05-17-2018, 09:09 AM   #83
New Guy
 
Cantifix's Avatar
 
Trade: Structural Glazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: London
Posts: 21
Rewards Points: 186

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zukinut View Post
Before my father started his company, he was laid off on Christmas Eve via phone call. I was a baby He took that as his calling card to do his own thing. He also took that as a calling card to have a hard time firing people.

I once overheard him tell a guy "al, you've worked for me for years, you've made me lots of money and I've paid you well, but lately, you've been costing me money and now it's time that I cost you some money"

I heard that 30 years ago and it's stuck with me. That's how I run the company now that he's retired.

Pretty cut and dry. I hired you to help me make money, in return I give you some of it. Don't help me, I don't help you.
I think this can be a fair way to handle things - I guess the main thing would be to make sure your staff know that's how you see/run things. As long as you and your staff are on the same page, then everybody wins; can't say fairer than that!
Cantifix is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-17-2018, 09:24 AM   #84
Pro
 
MarkJames's Avatar
 
Trade: Handyman Services
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 9,374
Rewards Points: 15,717

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
In the US If you leave negative information out of a reference, anyone hiring the person based on the reference can sue if the hire goes wrong.
I've never heard of a reference where they explain that someone was fired for cause. To the contrary, many employers just confirm employment dates, if anything.
MarkJames is online now  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:36 AM   #85
Pro
 
cwatbay's Avatar
 
Trade: Electrical Contractor
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Carlos, California
Posts: 1,429
Rewards Points: 2,542

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJames View Post
I've never heard of a reference where they explain that someone was fired for cause. To the contrary, many employers just confirm employment dates, if anything.
In CA you really can't put out any negative information as to why the person was fired. It can be in the company's employee file, but letting that information out as to why that person got fired is a short trip to a lawsuit. There are lawyers clamoring over each other to get lawsuits against employers.

This also explains a lot of hiring practices out here. If you are a minority and a protected class (female, gay, transgender, etc ---basically anyone and anything other than a white straight male) you may have a tough time getting many jobs. Simply because of the difficulty of firing you. However, you may get hired to fill company quotas of minority/protected class people.......which make the company look good as far as PR goes.

If you have to fire your white straight male employee, make it quick, preferably on a Friday, few words, get to the point and that's it. Have their last paycheck ready, and, if you want, one to two weeks of severance.
cwatbay is online now  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:16 AM   #86
Pro
 
hdavis's Avatar
 
Trade: remodeling
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CoastalME
Posts: 24,588
Rewards Points: 18

Re: How To Fire People.


Suppose you want to get rid of a guy without firing them. Maybe you're laying off, or maybe you just tell him you won't be able to keep him on, but you'll give him a reference and he can start looking.

Give a glowing reference when there are substantive negatives left out, and whoever hires them can turn around and sue. And win. You can't be dishonest in a reference letter.

On the other hand, doing a bad reference over the phone can get you sued by the ex employee. Who knows if they'd win.

If you do a reference at all, IMO it should be an exception to your general practice, it should be in writing only, no verbal. The letter should be reviewed with the ex employee to make sure they understand the positives and negatives in it. Again, it has to be an overall correct representation of the employee at your company.

Hand it to the ex employee and let them decide if / when they want to use it, you never disclose it directly to any potential employer.

AFAIK, personnel matters are confidential in most states, and if you get into this area, the focus really has to be on protecting the company while helping the person find a good fit.

People who could be good employees in the right situation are canned all the time because they aren't a good fit. Employees you can't imagine being a good employee or a good fit anywhere are never candidates for a reference.
hdavis is online now  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:34 AM   #87
The Sheriff

 
Jaws's Avatar
 
Trade: GC
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 24,069
Rewards Points: 12,080

Re: How To Fire People.


Man I'm so much colder now than I was 10 years ago it's unreal. I used to think a lot of guys were assholes that really we're not, they were just experienced LOL.

I take firing people very seriously but I do not lose any sleep over it at this point unless it's a long-term hand, even then it is what it is. A lot of people's loyalty just does not last forever, mine last until somebody Burns me.

Looking for the laborer I have now I fired 5 guys and 3 quit in about 3 months. I didn't say anything more to any of them than to hand them a check and say it ain't working out Hoss.

Same for Subs, I don't get emotional over that either. I returned the same loyalty shown to me, if they are screwing me over, lying to me and not doing what they said they were going to do I don't care if we've been doing business since the beginning, I will cut them loose and move on.

My advice is to remember this is a business and that you are a businessman, other people want to make it personal that's their problem. That guy is not doing his job Point Blank, and he's causing you stress and grief, shouldn't even be a decision for you. Just tell him that it isn't working out and to move on. All that stuff about worrying it took 10 months, I look at it that he had 10 months to change his ways and didn't do it. LOL.
__________________
"The sound of the saftey clicking off is the only warning your gonna get......., so cover your ears" Northeast Wyoming 2016

John
Jaws is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jaws For This Useful Post:
hdavis (05-17-2018), TNTRenovate (05-17-2018)
Old 05-17-2018, 10:35 AM   #88
Pro
 
hdavis's Avatar
 
Trade: remodeling
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CoastalME
Posts: 24,588
Rewards Points: 18

Re: How To Fire People.


BTW, if you're doing this in a large organization, it's against every company's policy I've ever seen. You have to have a clear business reason for doing it. You also have to assume that other employees will find out. There is enough added work involved that it really has to be an exceptional circumstance.
hdavis is online now  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:38 AM   #89
The Sheriff

 
Jaws's Avatar
 
Trade: GC
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 24,069
Rewards Points: 12,080

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Suppose you want to get rid of a guy without firing them. Maybe you're laying off, or maybe you just tell him you won't be able to keep him on, but you'll give him a reference and he can start looking.

Give a glowing reference when there are substantive negatives left out, and whoever hires them can turn around and sue. And win. You can't be dishonest in a reference letter.

On the other hand, doing a bad reference over the phone can get you sued by the ex employee. Who knows if they'd win.

If you do a reference at all, IMO it should be an exception to your general practice, it should be in writing only, no verbal. The letter should be reviewed with the ex employee to make sure they understand the positives and negatives in it. Again, it has to be an overall correct representation of the employee at your company.

Hand it to the ex employee and let them decide if / when they want to use it, you never disclose it directly to any potential employer.

AFAIK, personnel matters are confidential in most states, and if you get into this area, the focus really has to be on protecting the company while helping the person find a good fit.

People who could be good employees in the right situation are canned all the time because they aren't a good fit. Employees you can't imagine being a good employee or a good fit anywhere are never candidates for a reference.
A lot of people worry about that s*** but I don't see it happening Davis. The only referral I'll ever give somebody is whether or not they were a good hand or I'd hire him back again. And they will be to someone I know somebody calls over the phone I'm not likely to return the call it was a really good hand.

I'd like to see the lawyer that a hand it can't cut the mustard would be able to hire and would take on a case against a reputable company. If you're worried about it have them sign a piece of paper for their last check saying that they were released for this reason. I've never been worried about it myself

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
__________________
"The sound of the saftey clicking off is the only warning your gonna get......., so cover your ears" Northeast Wyoming 2016

John
Jaws is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to Jaws For This Useful Post:
TNTRenovate (05-17-2018)
Old 05-17-2018, 10:43 AM   #90
Pro
 
hdavis's Avatar
 
Trade: remodeling
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CoastalME
Posts: 24,588
Rewards Points: 18

Re: How To Fire People.


I've seen people told to stay away from all company premises, job sites, and equipment. You're still employed by us for the next two weeks, but your job is to find another job.

Sometimes it's cheaper that way.
hdavis is online now  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:47 AM   #91
The Sheriff

 
Jaws's Avatar
 
Trade: GC
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 24,069
Rewards Points: 12,080

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowboy View Post
Sorry parkers5150, eyerolling does not answer my argument as to what "does not fit in" means.

I know this will be much more difficult than pressing an emoji button, but perhaps you could take the time and intellect to articulate an explanation.
Doesn't fit in is a legitimate concern for someone trying to have a cohesive crew.

I'm not talking about everybody on the crew likes to hunt deer and listens to country music and this guy likes Opera and wants to go rock climbing on the weekend, I'm talking about everybody else on the crew has good rapport with each other and takes accountability for their actions and watch it each other's back and this guy's a douche bag who does not take accountability and is always complaining, yeah he doesn't fit in and he needs to go.

Culture is a big deal in a company that is bigger than one person. Even if it's just two people the culture of that company is important to both its clientele and its trade partners and its employees and its profitability
__________________
"The sound of the saftey clicking off is the only warning your gonna get......., so cover your ears" Northeast Wyoming 2016

John
Jaws is online now  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jaws For This Useful Post:
hdavis (05-17-2018), mrcat (05-17-2018), parkers5150 (05-17-2018), SmallTownGuy (05-17-2018)
Old 05-17-2018, 10:48 AM   #92
The Sheriff

 
Jaws's Avatar
 
Trade: GC
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 24,069
Rewards Points: 12,080

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
I've seen people told to stay away from all company premises, job sites, and equipment. You're still employed by us for the next two weeks, but your job is to find another job.

Sometimes it's cheaper that way.
That's funny. LOL. I was taught if you want to run somebody off have them unload the dumpster looking for something that doesn't exist and then have them put it all back and if they don't quit by then take it all back out again. Commercial construction 101.. LOL. Never done it but it works. LOL
__________________
"The sound of the saftey clicking off is the only warning your gonna get......., so cover your ears" Northeast Wyoming 2016

John
Jaws is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to Jaws For This Useful Post:
hdavis (05-17-2018)
Old 05-17-2018, 11:05 AM   #93
Pro
 
hdavis's Avatar
 
Trade: remodeling
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CoastalME
Posts: 24,588
Rewards Points: 18

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
A lot of people worry about that s*** but I don't see it happening Davis. The only referral I'll ever give somebody is whether or not they were a good hand or I'd hire him back again. And they will be to someone I know somebody calls over the phone I'm not likely to return the call it was a really good hand.

I'd like to see the lawyer that a hand it can't cut the mustard would be able to hire and would take on a case against a reputable company. If you're worried about it have them sign a piece of paper for their last check saying that they were released for this reason. I've never been worried about it myself

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Big companies worry about it all the time. They pay people big money to worry about it. I understand you probably don't have the exposure, but I've seen protected class firings for cause in engineering take more than 2 years, and over the years a number of suits, just none with people I fired. When you get into six figure salaries, it's pretty easy for an employee to find a lawyer to take the case, and once you include back salary and punitive damages, there is a lot of money on the table. Trial costs are $20k and up, so getting a payout without going to trial can be pretty easy. That assumes no potential violation of federal laws are involved, then you have the gummint after you, too.

Hang on to a person's check because they won't sign a piece of paper, and you just helped make their case.

You don't even want to have to know this, some areas of the US employees are always looking to scam and there are lawyers waiting to help. Other areas, they're pretty upright. Usually it's a big city disease.
hdavis is online now  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:10 AM   #94
The Sheriff

 
Jaws's Avatar
 
Trade: GC
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 24,069
Rewards Points: 12,080

Re: How To Fire People.


Well I think we'll be all right here unless we start building shopping malls or something. LOL I've never had any kind of issue, and as head of our HR department I have fired quite a few people.


I hear what you're saying though, I was talking about small-time construction companies not big companies. My wife worked on the 8th floor of a high-rise in downtown Austin, what they go through to fire someone is absolutely absurd
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Big companies worry about it all the time. They pay people big money to worry about it. I understand you probably don't have the exposure, but I've seen protected class firings for cause in engineering take more than 2 years, and over the years a number of suits, just none with people I fired. When you get into six figure salaries, it's pretty easy for an employee to find a lawyer to take the case, and once you include back salary and punitive damages, there is a lot of money on the table. Trial costs are $20k and up, so getting a payout without going to trial can be pretty easy. That assumes no potential violation of federal laws are involved, then you have the gummint after you, too.

Hang on to a person's check because they won't sign a piece of paper, and you just helped make their case.

You don't even want to have to know this, some areas of the US employees are always looking to scam and there are lawyers waiting to help. Other areas, they're pretty upright. Usually it's a big city disease.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
__________________
"The sound of the saftey clicking off is the only warning your gonna get......., so cover your ears" Northeast Wyoming 2016

John
Jaws is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to Jaws For This Useful Post:
hdavis (05-17-2018)
Old 05-17-2018, 03:55 PM   #95
Hair Splitter
 
TNTRenovate's Avatar
 
Trade: General
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 18,310
Rewards Points: 1,244

Re: How To Fire People.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
Man I'm so much colder now than I was 10 years ago it's unreal. I used to think a lot of guys were assholes that really we're not, they were just experienced LOL.

I take firing people very seriously but I do not lose any sleep over it at this point unless it's a long-term hand, even then it is what it is. A lot of people's loyalty just does not last forever, mine last until somebody Burns me.

Looking for the laborer I have now I fired 5 guys and 3 quit in about 3 months. I didn't say anything more to any of them than to hand them a check and say it ain't working out Hoss.

Same for Subs, I don't get emotional over that either. I returned the same loyalty shown to me, if they are screwing me over, lying to me and not doing what they said they were going to do I don't care if we've been doing business since the beginning, I will cut them loose and move on.

My advice is to remember this is a business and that you are a businessman, other people want to make it personal that's their problem. That guy is not doing his job Point Blank, and he's causing you stress and grief, shouldn't even be a decision for you. Just tell him that it isn't working out and to move on. All that stuff about worrying it took 10 months, I look at it that he had 10 months to change his ways and didn't do it. LOL.
When I started I said I'm not going to be that guy in many ways. 15 years later... I'm that guy and I understand why.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Advertisement

__________________
Tried & True on Facebook
Tried & True Website
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpenterSFO View Post
You ask for your money frequently, and you collect it quickly, else you stop working immediately.
TNTRenovate is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TNTRenovate For This Useful Post:
Calidecks (05-17-2018), Jaws (05-17-2018), MarkJames (05-17-2018), SmallTownGuy (05-17-2018)


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Houston fire at construction site Snobnd Off Topic (Non Trade) 18 03-28-2014 08:53 PM
wood burning fire and pizza oven westmeath m Masonry 19 04-18-2013 08:29 PM
Paslode Framer Dry fire help Stunt Carpenter Tools & Equipment 4 03-15-2013 01:30 AM
1/2 story steel fire escape stair App-ironworks Specialty Trades Picture Post 6 03-09-2013 09:34 AM
Do you know your Fire Door Safety responsibility? BWF-CERTIFIRE New Member Introductions 3 02-15-2010 09:34 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?