How Do You Layout Large Buildings? - General Discussion - Contractor Talk

How Do You Layout Large Buildings?

 
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:58 PM   #1
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How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


What do you do when the engineer starts specifying how many pounds of force to put on the steel tape?

The 90* laser stops showing during the working hours...

Letís say theoretically you have a building that is 70í X 200í

Iím doing design work on a few large buildings, wonít be the project manager but Iím fascinated by the question.

Do you hire a surveyor, if so, to what end?




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Old 06-13-2019, 09:13 PM   #2
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


surveyor.

he provides benchmarks, corners, off sets, grid lines, pertinent points etc...


money well spent. IMO

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Old 06-13-2019, 09:51 PM   #3
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


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Originally Posted by griz View Post
surveyor.

he provides benchmarks, corners, off sets, grid lines, pertinent points etc...


money well spent. IMO
yep. No BS down the road that way
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Old 06-13-2019, 09:56 PM   #4
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


You still need to know the basics to confirm the pro's work is accurate.

Is the footprint of the building with legal setbacks, is the FFL above the floodplain, will the storm and sanitary sewers actually work?
any dangerous brownfield legacies? High voltage, fiber optics, high pressure Natural gas lines.......
Soil tests performed UNDER the building's actual location?
Bench marks that will survive the entire construction process?

Who pays re staking Fees?

See massive delay of Interstate/State highway flyover, I 35 x federal highway 30, that was off on EVERY pier in two dimensions, requiring all pier tops to be hand demoed and re-poured..... Several million $ errors.

Three levels + of INCOMPETENT management over the incompetent workers.

Plus the use Illegal Alien laborers that can't or won't question any errors made by their foremen/co-workers, one less level of error detection on a criminally manned job site.
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Old 06-13-2019, 10:48 PM   #5
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


I appreciate the comment about benchmarks that will last through the construction process.

Also like the idea of laying out all grid lines so you can check multiple squares etc.




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Old 06-13-2019, 10:49 PM   #6
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fouthgeneration View Post
You still need to know the basics to confirm the pro's work is accurate.



Is the footprint of the building with legal setbacks, is the FFL above the floodplain, will the storm and sanitary sewers actually work?

any dangerous brownfield legacies? High voltage, fiber optics, high pressure Natural gas lines.......

Soil tests performed UNDER the building's actual location?

Bench marks that will survive the entire construction process?



Who pays re staking Fees?



See massive delay of Interstate/State highway flyover, I 35 x federal highway 30, that was off on EVERY pier in two dimensions, requiring all pier tops to be hand demoed and re-poured..... Several million $ errors.



Three levels + of INCOMPETENT management over the incompetent workers.



Plus the use Illegal Alien laborers that can't or won't question any errors made by their foremen/co-workers, one less level of error detection on a criminally manned job site.


Iíll look up this construction fail, itís amazing that things can go this bad on so many layers.


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Old 06-13-2019, 11:09 PM   #7
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


There are instances where someone never restablished an obliterated corner and it threw off several lots in a row.

I had a plot plan from a city hall that showed an original easement running right underneath the house. The house had been there a good 50 years.

Are these the kinds of things that land you in court? I don't want to find out
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:01 AM   #8
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


Depends.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:00 AM   #9
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


A site work guy I know installed a septic within the power companies right of way, the system was already getting installed on a neighbors property as the septic systems owner had no lot space. Now that septic needs to be eased into the power companies right of way and the eased septicís property is changing hands and itís a mess.

Obviously no surveyor was hired.

Relatively low stakes but itís a perfect example of needing to accurately translate points on paper to points in space.


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Old 06-14-2019, 08:49 AM   #10
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


I've seen a bunch of things. The bottom line is have a surveyor establish locations of lot lines, building, easements, etc.

I've even seen public utilities run decades ago with no easement, which actually means there is an "easement of necessity". If they have to dig through your living room to repair the utility, they will be able to.

Disputes with cities don't end well, they can always eminent domain what they want. Legal fees for fights on this are generally 6 figures.
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:13 AM   #11
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


Major 'whoopsie-doodle' in my area:

https://www.kcci.com/article/uh-oh-c...stake/22121540
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:26 AM   #12
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


I wonder how that happened.....
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:59 AM   #13
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


Iíd be curious what was driving the decision to fix the elevations by going backwards on site vs coming up with a design modification to land it as is.

It comes down to engineers saying not my fault and no one is going to pay for a redesign.

They mentioned a couple inches sure itís miles on such a highly engineered project but man...

Iím sure the project was staged with materials fabricated for the exact plan so there was zero room for error.


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Old 06-14-2019, 11:07 AM   #14
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


70' x 200' Is not all that large of a building and could easily be done using conventional steel tapes and batterboards, however most contractors that build this size stuff and larger on a regular basis have a surveyor set up some benchmarks and reference lines, then utilize a Total Station to set various locations and points as they build the project.
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:02 PM   #15
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


So the concrete contractor has the footings poured and most walls formed. They showed up with a total station and just housed the layout.

The site contractor messed up the building alignment by 1í but we rolled with it.

I wish I had time to watch them more carefully but when I got there to meet them they had 2 pop up tents, each on a corner and weíre shooting points all around.

Iíll know how in/out the building is soon and post back some images.


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Old 06-25-2019, 10:07 PM   #16
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


I wish I could get paid for work that is off by One part in 70......
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:10 AM   #17
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


If anything his error was a management issue on my part.

I had told him that the layout was driven by a ramp between buildings, not ends of buildings but I didnít make sure to be there when he started.


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Old 06-28-2019, 01:08 AM   #18
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


So You are getting paid for missing the building location by a Foot?

The big Pyramid in Eygpt is only ~4 inches out of square.....~400 foot long base edges.....but the committee of blame hadn't yet been invented....
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Old 06-28-2019, 06:31 AM   #19
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


Quote:
Originally Posted by duburban View Post
So the concrete contractor has the footings poured and most walls formed. They showed up with a total station and just housed the layout.

The site contractor messed up the building alignment by 1í but we rolled with it.

I wish I had time to watch them more carefully but when I got there to meet them they had 2 pop up tents, each on a corner and weíre shooting points all around.

Iíll know how in/out the building is soon and post back some images.


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I have been to several demonstrations of the total stations...and if I were a younger guy with decades in front of me, I would have bought in. They haven't got cheaper with technology either.

The PSC Project we built had a main building 360 feet long and 100 feet wide plus a 100 x 100 warehouse spaced 100 feet from the end of the main building. So I had 560 feet that needed to be perfectly aligned.

I essentially pinned the corners and pulled lines. Then set up corners and batters along the long walls every 100 feet. Then when I started the actual long line, I used our line laser set at one end, and detected the far end, adjusting until we got in rough alignment...and then marked in every crossing point for the batters. Then we build solid corners at elevation, and steel pinned the actual corners.

I would guess if we had any error in the 360 length, it was less then 1/2 an inch...steel is pretty forgiving in length...the width was not a problem, we 100 foot runs all day long. And I do have a surveyor's grade 200 foot steel tape....says 70f degrees optimum.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:57 PM   #20
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Re: How Do You Layout Large Buildings?


Dudurban -


The engineer you mentioned probably had a background in land surveying that requires more accuracy (in terms of percentage) than building construction.


As an example, in land surveying (without electronic/laser equipment), lengths are measured and then corrected for field temperature (steel tapes only). The tension must be at a standard amount to correct to correct for sagging. The horizontal measurements are measured exactly horizontally with a plumb-bob if points on the ground are not level to correct for slopes and the curvature of the earth.


In college, I was required to take several surveying classes (land surveying and construction-oriented surveying). In surveying class, we did some "recreational surveying" in the warm, sunning spring weather by looking at the patio of the women's dormitory below.


Our 5 year degree required a 4 week summer surveying class that had 4 crews us start at the corner of a section and had each crew to put a stake at the center of the section. - This required crossing or routing around swamps or ponds.


When I finished the required summer class, I worked for the highway department laying out bridges and inspected bridge construction and concrete every summer. - Summer work was like a vacation - Long, long hours and built up "comp time" for hours over 40 hours per week to be banked and drawn out once I went back to school in the fall.



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