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Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking

 
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:43 PM   #1
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Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


First Time Here...

I recently had a call from a client looking to get a crack in their drywall repaired. Being that the crack was larger then normal I opened up the ceiling to explore it further. I notice that the crack was happening parallel with a header.

There is a 1/2"+ gap between the two 2x10" that make up the header. The joists that are nailed in to the header only have one nail each and appear to resting on some type of ledge (1"x1") (sorry not sure on the technical name for this type of older framing.).

The joist also don't seem to be level with the bottom on the header, which would require the drywall not to sit flush with all the framing.

By the way to the ceiling is 3/8" drywall. My first time seeing this on a standard flat ceiling.

Solutions?
Should I add hangers? Which type?
Should I bolt the header back together? Would do that cause the joist to separate from the header more (the 1/2" has to go some where.)


I'm sure I'm missing some key information so I look forward to any question your guy/gals may have.

Thank you!!
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:07 PM   #2
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


I have never seen a floor joist notched and hanging like that. What size 2X is it? The reason is it is cracking could be too much flex in the floor because the 2X joist is too small along with the lid board only being 3/8"

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Old 07-16-2020, 09:50 PM   #3
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Really shouldn't say anything because the "code nazi's" will get their undies jumbled in a bundle, but feeling ornery and snarky....

Short of a rebuild for code and the engineers calcs (faq me) for what I don;t know but someone will think it ROTFL


Appears to be ceiling jsts notched and set on a ripped ledger. 1 3/4"-7/8" tall tied to one side of a dbl 2x10 header. The biggest issues are the gap of the header and clg jsts hanging below the header. The gap is allowing teh the 2x10's to move independently of each other. Fricken common to see crap like that around here in Texas.

Solution is to run shims every 16-24" in the gap and 3-4 16cc at those spots. ( Ideally 3 from one side and 3 from the other) It's not code compliant, but the ceiling ain't falling down, however this will stop the 2x10 from moving independently from each other and causing undue stresses on the wallboard.

The joists hanging low, another so what the phuck is new. If the joists only have a single nail, drive the fricken thing up flush and nail it. A 3 and 2 toe nail pattern is better than whats there. Teco's will work too after a two nail or two. You wanna go nuts, fricken pull the ledger and run hangers after flushing the jsts.

Now if the joists are actually nailed better than you think, use some drywall shims to flush the header bottom to the joist bottoms. Ideally you should cut the drywall back a foot or more so that the running joints isn't on the beam to begin with. One ot those things are when hanging rock, if you "can" avoid you do anyway.

welp good luck
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:09 AM   #4
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


The joist are 2x6 and the attic is the only load on it. The house is a split level type.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:03 AM   #5
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Before all the hardware became popular, ledgers was how it was done.

I'd expect there to be a couple 16d nails popped in from the header into the joist end grain.

Sometimes your best bet is put in solid blocking as nailers and not attach drywall to the header.
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Old 07-17-2020, 03:03 PM   #6
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Shoring up my house now because of the same issue but much much worse.

I always thought the notch in the end weakened the joist but the engineer told me otherwise. They added a second story onto my house twenty years ago and just sistered the 2 x 6's with 2 x 8s. They also decided to span them 14 feet and then support them on the middle beam which is a triple 2 x 6 that spans 13 feet holding up the entire center of the second story.

Steel beams going in next week. I don't know how it stood up as long as it has.
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Old 07-17-2020, 03:49 PM   #7
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by fred54 View Post

I always thought the notch in the end weakened the joist but the engineer told me otherwise

I don't know about that engineer He doesn't know what he talking about
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Old 07-17-2020, 07:15 PM   #8
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
Before all the hardware became popular, ledgers was how it was done.

I'd expect there to be a couple 16d nails popped in from the header into the joist end grain.

Sometimes your best bet is put in solid blocking as nailers and not attach drywall to the header.
but the joists were not notched unless they were oversized ( which may be the case here ), the joist was on the ledger
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:30 AM   #9
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk View Post
but the joists were not notched unless they were oversized ( which may be the case here ), the joist was on the ledger
Usually. I think they went all the same size to try to get it to plane out, needed to notch for the ledger.

Who knows.......
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:27 PM   #10
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post

I don't know about that engineer He doesn't know what he talking about

https://4fs0893rxsil3r8n0j24afu1-wpe..._3-768x707.jpg

I don't like it but it's allowed and apparently ok. Not very common up north but I see it on all the older houses down here.
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Old 07-18-2020, 06:20 PM   #11
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Nothing wrong with that style of framing if it's done right. IE; cut the right size, overcut not too big, nailed properly, etc.

It is called a yankee (at least that's what I was taught it was called). It was done around here all the time up until the late 80's or early 90's when hangers became popular (by "popular" I mean that some lobbyists from the companies who made them got them written into the code). I've done them myself when I started framing full time for my dad in 1980.

Some of the real old houses have a 1x yankee.

I would be inclined to try and slip some 1/2" plywood between the headers and screw them together but what you are describing tells me the beam might have been under sized or there is something else going on.

Good luck,

Bill
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Old 07-18-2020, 06:25 PM   #12
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by fred54 View Post
https://4fs0893rxsil3r8n0j24afu1-wpe..._3-768x707.jpg

I don't like it but it's allowed and apparently ok. Not very common up north but I see it on all the older houses down here.
I don't mind it. The fail mode when they're notched is splitting, but it happens after the center of the joist would break if you load a joist evenly.

I don't like notching because I don't like taking the time to cut the notches.
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Old 07-18-2020, 08:31 PM   #13
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by fred54 View Post

I always thought the notch in the end weakened the joist but the engineer told me otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post

I don't know about that engineer He doesn't know what he talking about
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred54 View Post
https://4fs0893rxsil3r8n0j24afu1-wpe..._3-768x707.jpg

I don't like it but it's allowed and apparently ok. Not very common up north but I see it on all the older houses down here.
I was disagreeing with the top quote. You notch the end of the board it gets weaker. That's a given.
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:41 PM   #14
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtywhiteboy View Post
I was disagreeing with the top quote. You notch the end of the board it gets weaker. That's a given.
I understood what you were saying, and agreed with it. Later I explained why the code allows end notching.

You're saying they're different things, I'm saying they're different things.
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Old 07-20-2020, 02:16 PM   #15
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


I've never seen a joint like that in framing. Looks like it's strong enough to me.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:01 PM   #16
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


I saw that exact setup for hanging a 2x6 joist in a 50yr old house in Austin last week.

my concern would be how is the 2x6 attached to the beam. seems like 3 toe nailed 16's would be a minimum-something to give it pull out resistance.

not clear from your description, but is there up to a 1/2" gap between the end of teh 2x6 and the 2x10 beam?
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Old 07-21-2020, 11:44 AM   #17
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Would think those saw cuts could lead to a future crack. Maybe some kind of small inside radius might help.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:27 PM   #18
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


I had a building inspector tell me once that you should cut at least a 135 instead of a 90. Smart guy, still believe him.
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:29 PM   #19
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
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Would think those saw cuts could lead to a future crack. Maybe some kind of small inside radius might help.
Another way is to put a plywood gusset bridging it where it's cut.
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:36 PM   #20
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Re: Framing Issue / Drywall Cracking


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdavis View Post
I understood what you were saying, and agreed with it. Later I explained why the code allows end notching.

You're saying they're different things, I'm saying they're different things.
So when I posted I didn't look well and thought they were floor joist. Yes if it calls for 2x4 ceiling joist then all is good there. I would frieze block them in before I'd use a 2x2 ledger. If that's the way they do it fine with me.

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