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Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?

 
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:40 AM   #21
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


final test should be design it then build it. Pass or fail only.

did the building dept stamp it approved?
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:28 PM   #22
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjob View Post
final test should be design it then build it. Pass or fail only.

did the building dept stamp it approved?
Unfortunately - in cases like this, you are supposed to know better & it is better to correct it before the concrete goes down. The Archidick is covered by the AIA contract, the poor civil servants must have accidentally missed it & will simply state it needs to be corrected assuming the inspector catches it.

Catch it, pull out your contract that states "materials & est based solely off of plan X dated Y"

Change order to meet code $$$ compliments of the Arch - Sign Here
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:43 PM   #23
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


It's the architects responsibility to design to code regardless of what he puts (or stamps) on the plans, it's the very essence of his job, that's why they are required to continue their education on an ongoing basis. Now if you hired the architect you might get stuck with the bill but you can sue him/her and recover.

I would go as far as to say that if you deviate from the architects plans, even if you think it's to meet code, you are putting yourself at risk. Best to bring any issues to the architect and have him make, sign, and/or seal any changes.





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Old 12-09-2008, 02:55 PM   #24
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


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Originally Posted by Deadhead Derek View Post
.......
I looked at him and said, "MC Ecsher Designed a bunch of stuff, but I'd like to see you build it." ........
And here I thought that was
my original come back.


If it returns a blank stare,
you know it's wading in the
deep weeds from here on.





A story about a truly Escher-esque print at a later date.....
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Last edited by neolitic; 12-09-2008 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 05:50 PM   #25
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rbsremodeling View Post
Plans are opened by me to get a concept of what a job is supposed to look like and specs for materials to be used

They go back in the tube and only come out when it is time for inspections.

Not that straight forward but you all get the point
And a good point it is, and no doubt shared by many.
My Dad was an excavation and foundation contractor. He always said:

"The only thing the plan is good for is to make sure you're digging on the right lot".
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Old 12-09-2008, 05:55 PM   #26
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjob View Post
final test should be design it then build it. Pass or fail only.

did the building dept stamp it approved?
Yeah, they signed off on it. In the Los Angeles Department of Building and Safety, that doesn't mean a damn thing.
Sometimes I feel like there is an inverted pyramid, like a funnel. Every friggin' problem goes in the top at the wide opening, and everything comes out the bottom at a tiny little point right on to the General Contractor's head.
Everybody is playing a CYA game and trying to leave a back door open for themselves to run out of and leave the GC holding the bag of you-know-what.
It's really beginning to try my patience.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:19 PM   #27
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyco View Post
It's the architects responsibility to design to code regardless of what he puts (or stamps) on the plans, it's the very essence of his job, that's why they are required to continue their education on an ongoing basis. Now if you hired the architect you might get stuck with the bill but you can sue him/her and recover.

I would go as far as to say that if you deviate from the architects plans, even if you think it's to meet code, you are putting yourself at risk. Best to bring any issues to the architect and have him make, sign, and/or seal any changes.
Good point - change orders need to be signed off by the architect (which had better include more down time) - Sorry I forgot to add that in

Sure you can sue him, but it takes time & money. While you are going through this hassle welcome to the black listed treatment which is causing you to lose more money. Granted that is illegal & you can press charges, but that takes more time & money.

It is cheaper if it is caught up front - after the fact, welcome to a huge circle jerk where no matter which way it turns out, you still have lost time & money.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:21 PM   #28
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Nomad View Post
One of my drinking buddies is an architect... Bill is somewhere in his mid-50s and very old school in many ways. Listening to him rant about "the new kids" I can see why there's static. Looking at the relationship between Contractors and Architects, it seems that they are growing farther apart by the day -- and it all started with the departure from the pencil.

Think about it. Back in the day, everyone involved in a project used a pencil. Builders used fat pencils, Architects used skinny ones. Eventually Architects went to mechanical pencils and now it's all Autocad. Ask any Architect that's graduated from college within the past 20 years or so and they haven't had to *learn* how to hand draw a set of plans at all. Make a mistake on a drawing done with a pencil and a T-square and you feel it. Make a mistake or an oversight with AutoCAD and you can almost blow it off. Take that factor and add in the "I'm an Architect" ego thing and it adds up to legions of Architects hitting the marketplace that don't give a flying frag about what it is to build what they're designing. Relatively speaking, General Contractors have continued to build pretty much the same way they have all along and can spot when something's wrong on a plan in much the same way a surgeon can see some physical symptoms of an ailment before doing a single test. It seems like that widening gap between GCs and Architects seems like it could be a recipe for headaches sooner or later. Personally, I think that bringing Architect students back into the building process old school style might help, but I could be wrong..

Just my half-a-nickel...

I graduated with in the past 20 years and I can draw autocad, 3d, build, and use a pencil.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:42 PM   #29
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Spool View Post
I graduated with in the past 20 years and I can draw autocad, 3d, build, and use a pencil.
You are the exception not the rule.
But good to know there are people like you out there.

Last edited by Bodger; 12-09-2008 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:12 PM   #30
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodger View Post
You are the exception not the rule.
But good to know there are people like you out there.

I find the life long argument comical, in the end no one knows anything.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:33 AM   #31
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Spool View Post
I graduated with in the past 20 years and I can draw autocad, 3d, build, and use a pencil.
That being the case you're definitely an exception to the norm and ahead of the curve -- and I mean that seriously.

At a Happy Hour one afternoon, when my Architect friend first started ranting about some of the "new school" Architects, I thought he might have been just resistant to change and looking for reasons to take a dump on new talent. I'm roughly 15 years younger than he is so when those first complaints came out I thought there was some degree of alcohol-induced exaggeration going on. Over the course of some projects and after getting to know some of his associates (other Architects in their 50s) I was given insight into more than a few SNAFU situations at other local architectural firms that didn't go bad until the GC called out the problems, I started to see different. With both companies, all their hires within the past 5-10 years had been from certain Virginia universities that are renowned for their Architectural schools.

To make matters worse, as a "senior Architect without seniority", my friend often found himself in situations where if he red-lined too many mistakes he'd get slammed for not being a team player and if he let them go he wasn't doing the kind of QA that was supposed to be part of his job -- and these were on gov't contracts. In the interest of being politically correct and not offending anyone, in some cases management actually allowed the plans to leave the firms only to have the client and/or the GC call out the mistakes.

Yeah, sounds crazy, right? I don't get it either, but I was close enough to the situation to see there's definitely a difference in expectations and work ethic between the old school and new school Architects.
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Last edited by Max Nomad; 12-10-2008 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:12 AM   #32
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodger View Post
Yeah, did that. Along with about a dozen other instances where the plan clled out some crazy stuff the HO didn't know about. Not all of it was a codebuster, but most of it was fussy nonsense that cost the a lot of money. BUT, they hired the guy and they continue to pay him so I continue to build and bill.
Those are the keywords: build and bill.

Now come back with the final words added & collect double

Final keywords: and I collected the checks !!!

Then it all works out in the end, a few less hairs maybe & a well deserved vacation, makes you ready for the next one..
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:47 AM   #33
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


I have a unique perspective.

I'm a licensed engineer and a partner in a contracting company, and we get plans from architects pretty regularly. We all have a good laugh when we see some of the stuff that comes out. Particularly the lack of detail on what we call non-uniform construction. I can accept getting structural plans that only show a zillion straight black lines for beams and bar joists, because I have the AISC manuals and I know what connections to use where. But it makes me laugh when a knot of steel shows up on the drawing, and it's obviously been swept under the rug as to how the connection scheme is supposed to go, because it's totally non-uniform and not standard. In cases like that, I send in a formal RFI requesting clarification. It goes right back in their laps, and they have to solve it.

Another scenario happens a lot on our mechanical side. HVAC and mechanical drawings just totally suck these days. And the blurb in the general notes that says it's the contractor's responsibility to install a fully functional (fill-in-the-blank) system, and that the drawings are only schematic in nature, and all runs have to be coordinated with other trades, and all dimensions have to be confirmed in the field... It definitely smacks of hey-lets-get-these-drawings-out-the-door and let-the-contractor-figure-that-out. You also have to understand that the bible of commercial construction contracts, the AIA Contract, was written by architects. But the process certainly weeds out the clueless from those that know what's needed to build a complete package up to code. I do cringe, though, every time I hear about a small timer that gets killed and goes belly up because he did a bad estimate.
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Old 12-10-2008, 05:29 PM   #34
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


On my current project, there was a box on the first floor plan that represented the fireplace. It was right in the middle of the open floor plan, and was supposed to sit in a divider wall between the dining room and living room area. Just a rectangular line on the plan, and box on the elevation. Fireplace.
I kept submitting RFI after RFI regarding the framing for the fireplace surround, and where the vent would be going. It could not go straight up, there was a bedroom above and the vent, if it went straight up, would be right in the center of the room.
Finally, I notified the archy that this looked pretty critical to me, and that he needed to get off his ass and answer my RFI's.
Next thing you know, the archy is doing a song and dance used car salesman act for the H/O about how great an Ethanol fireplace would be, AND it didn't need a vent. Why? Because the numb-nuts finally figured out that he had NO place to chase the vent for a gas fireplace if it was to be in the porposed location as depicted per plan.
There is now a fireplace on the wall where it can direct vent to the outside. And the H/O was not happy.
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:18 PM   #35
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


There is usually an 'errors & omissions' clause in the contracts between architecs and owners, and archys cry just like a baby girl when it comes out.

We got burned pretty good on my last job over the mechanical code. There is a code that never gets enforced in Utah, where I live and we do most of our work, but this job was in Wyoming, and the life/saftey inspector there gigged us on it. It's the code that says 'any servicable equipment'-that is exhaust fans in this case-must be a minimum of 10' from the edge of the roof or next level if it's more than a 30" drop. Yep, our fans were right where the plans showed them, 5' from the edge, so we had to install some butt-ugly guard rails in front of them. The owner wasn't very happy about it. The arcitect and engeneer got the blame, but we had to pony up for the cost of the guard rails.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:03 PM   #36
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Re: Code Knowledge Responsibility-Architect Or Contractor?


Pappy has to jump in here with his two bits as well. Picture being in school and Archie tells G.C. to go punch Johnny. G.C. then hires Subby to go punch Johnny for him. G.C. and Subby are BOTH at fault for wrong-doing and would share in the consequences. It's up to all professionals (G.C.'s AND their subs) to check plans for code issues and bring them to light for correction prior to or during the job. All you G.C.'s and Subs should include language in your contract/proposals to address bing compensated for code violations/corrections costs resulting from the architect's oversights. Happy Building!

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