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Architect Troubles

4K views 35 replies 15 participants last post by  Bodger 
#1 ·
I'm into my 15th month on a custom residential build in the Venice, CA area. This has been one of those projects where the architect has worked out many of the design details as the job has progressed, something the homeowners agreed to (they know the architect socially) even though I protested somewhat to the extent of the unknowns going into the project. No problems getting paid, but the change orders have been immense.
The most pressing problem I'm having right now is that there is a total of four decks, three of them balcony decks and one a large roof deck. All of the deck surfaces are plywood sheeting over joist framing wiht Tuff-Tex waterproofing applied and they all drain 1/4" per foot to scuppers. From the beginning, I have been asking the architect to supply his proposed detail for attaching the sleepers to the Tuff-Tex which will then accept the finish deck boards. Yesterday, I received a plan detail which proposes ripping Trex deck boards to act as sleeper (in most cases, this will be 2" down to zero) fastening those sleepers to the Tuff-Tex with polyurethane adhesive, and screwing 1 x 6 Ipe deck boards to those sleepers. This means where I am down to zero with the sleepers, I will have to glue the Ipe as well, because a screw fastener would penetrate the Tuff-Tex otherwise.
I have constructed probably 5000 square feet of Ipe decking in my time and have found that this material's tangential and radial movement isn't so bad, but it is prone to warping, cupping, crowning and arching if not secured with good adhesive and proper screws. I cannot get this overeducated putz to understand that if mere adhesive is being expected to keep this Ipe from dancing around, I might be in for one hell of a callback. Any suggestions on how I might make this deck treatment work?
 
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#3 ·
Thanks for the idea. The problem with that is that the architect wanted the finish deck treads to be 1/4" below the top of the door thresholds, and we framed it accordingly, so we'ree married to the available vertical height because of the door placement. Also, the balcony decks are all surrounded by CR Laurence aluminum heavy duty base shoe into which stands 1/2" tempered glass as the railing treatment. And of course, the base shoe is set down in to framing so that the only about one inch of the top of the base shoe's stainless steel cladding will be visible above the finsh deck treads, as opposed to the entire 3" depth of the base shoe. This architect is so anal you couldn't get a dime up his ass with a jackhammer.
I have a good paper trail of my protests regarding this whole idea, but as we know, once I do it, I own it. The architect won't be the one they call if these treads start raising up.
 
#5 ·
That only works until a problem happens, then it's every man for himself, the HO in the eyes of the law is innocent, they know nothing and hired a professional...you. The architect, well, if you beat him, don't expet to get anymore work from him or his buddies, they talk and will say 'don't use so and so, he's a dick', plus architects influence HO's more than contractors, meaning HO's won't be calling asking you to bid...because no architect is recommending you.

That leaves you the contractor holding the bag. Call the manufacturer, have the rep meet you on site, let him review and make the proposal, this is why they have reps and a tech department. If it can't be done, let him explain the issue to the HO and Architect, let him be the bad guy. Besides, people listen to the reps more then they listen to the contractor, even though they just sell product and don't physically do the work, people listen to them more often than not.
 
#7 ·
Ok Thats is it! All architects from here on out need at least 2 yrs framing, 2 yrs tiling, 2 yrs trim all field verifable eperience please send your checks to:

123 Fah Q St
HA HA
LA La Land 12134

in the amount of the percentage you plan screw every GC from here on out. :w00t::clap::laughing:
 
#13 ·
ok I see the problem. He does not have parpet walls or spacing under the deck.

The deck will sit on the sleepers/sheathing that was water proofed so the sleepers will be need to allow the water to run under the deck boards and give the roof a pitch

What the architect proposes will not work. attaching to the sheathing is a bad idea and when the roof needs maintenance or repairs it will be hard and it will fail with what he is proposing

If the walls will support it I would build some parapet walls on the side and set the deck on that and allow the water to run on the properly water proof sheathing underneath
 
#14 ·
ok I see the problem. He does not have parpet walls or spacing under the deck.

The deck will sit on the sleepers/sheathing that was water proofed so the sleepers will be need to allow the water to run under the deck boards and give the roof a pitch

What the architect proposes will not work. attaching to the sheathing is a bad idea and when the roof needs maintenance or repairs it will be hard and it will fail with what he is proposing

If the walls will support it I would build some parapet walls on the side and set the deck on that and allow the water to run on the properly water proof sheathing underneath
I agree, that sounds like a much more practical approach. But this architect is the type of idiot who likes to design himself into a corner and then expects the GC to build him out of it. He's got the decks surrounded with glas panels and CR Laurence aluminum base shoe which rises one inch above the perimeter of the finish deck treads, and those deck treads will be 1/4" lower than the tops of all of the thresholds. Absolutely nowhere to go up, down, or sideways to make it so I don't have to glue sleepers to those TuffTex surfaces. The second I got that detail (which was after were well into the build) I protested, and have continued to do so. To the point of telling the homeowner that at some point, they are going to have to sign off on it not being my problem. Which is pretty much useless according to my attorney. He has flatly stated that if I build it, I own the reasonable warranty on it, you can't get a waiver on negligence. It's an old story, these design butt-heads try to lead us down a path we know we shouldn't be on so that they can get good pictures for their book and press on down the road. Form over function. I see a showdown in the future. If I leave the TuffTex alone, it will not be penetrated and it will not be covered to a point where repairs are impossible. I had the installer use the 80 grit surfacing so that if and when I did my mutiny, at least the decks would not be slippery if not covered by finish treads.
 
#15 · (Edited)
OK, not the best idea but...

1/8" aluminum x 1" wide, 48" long set perpendicular to the IPE and between the sleepers.

These can be set into grooves in the IPE, providing stability. These will be screwed to the underside of the IPE. This effectively provide some stability to the IPE while acting as an artificial sleeper, but, set back from the "zero" end of the sleepers so as not to damage your waterproof membrane.

If the IPE runs perpendicular to the slope, then the groove can be deepend in the IPE to set the aluminum and screws below the surface.

I would cut a 1/4" foot template to run my router on cut the groove for the parts that might need to be set below flush and take great care in screw selection. I'm not familiar with IPE, but I understand its hard as hell. You'll have to set up your first 3-4' of rows upside down and prefab them and set them in as a unit, with only the aluminum to hold things together. Left will be right, and up will be down. Only north and south will be north and south, so take care and measure often.

My biggest concerns here will be electrolosis and corrosion from moisture. I would predrill the aluminum but slots, not just holes, to allow for movement and to prevent fastener failure from sheer.

Good luck

Does that help any?
 
#21 · (Edited)
OK, not the best idea but...

1/8" aluminum x 1" wide, 48" long set perpendicular to the IPE and between the sleepers.

These can be set into grooves in the IPE, providing stability. These will be screwed to the underside of the IPE. This effectively provide some stability to the IPE while acting as an artificial sleeper, but, set back from the "zero" end of the sleepers so as not to damage your waterproof membrane.

If the IPE runs perpendicular to the slope, then the groove can be deepend in the IPE to set the aluminum and screws below the surface.

I would cut a 1/4" foot template to run my router on cut the groove for the parts that might need to be set below flush and take great care in screw selection. I'm not familiar with IPE, but I understand its hard as hell. You'll have to set up your first 3-4' of rows upside down and prefab them and set them in as a unit, with only the aluminum to hold things together. Left will be right, and up will be down. Only north and south will be north and south, so take care and measure often.

My biggest concerns here will be electrolosis and corrosion from moisture. I would predrill the aluminum but slots, not just holes, to allow for movement and to prevent fastener failure from sheer.

Good luck

Does that help any?
Yes, and it makes sense. The main issue is exactly what you address which is keeping that damned Ipe rigid, but not penetrating the waterproofing. I will tinker about with this. I have had many instances on this job where I have had to re-invent the wheel to get it to roll. The dollar amount of my change orders on this job total more than some entire houses I've built in the past.
What you described is essentially a version of the way I am doing the stairs that lead up to the roof deck, which cut right between two exterior walls, and have inhabitable space under the framing that supports them. What I did on these steps was to screw four 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" stainless steel "L" channel in to each plywood treads and risers, then waterproofed over the bottom of the angle, leaving the top part of the L sticking up so I can attach a horizontal Ipe sleeper to it with SS machine bolts. Then, I will affix the risers and treads to anodized aluminum "U" channel, and put that over the sleeper and affix with screws from the top through the gap in the Ipe. I'll have to hot glue the treads and risers on to the U channel first, then remove and screw them to the Ipe boards. I have already built and discarded two jigs to try to standardize this execution. Even a 16th of an inch off with the U channel means you can't get the four U channels over the four sleepers due to alignment problems. And each one will have to be numbered in case they all ever have to come off for repairs.
You can see what I'm up against here. The balcony decks might be able to be left sloped and since they have a non-slip surface, might pass inspection. The deck stairs I am forced to apply finished treads and risers so that the are equal and consistent and meet code from where they start, and where thay end, which is from a balcony deck to a roof deck. What a lot of guys aren't understanding about what I've written here, and understandably so, is that the deck slopes, but the finish treads cannot, and they have to be at a specific height wich means the sleepers have to go from 2" to zero approximately, and I cannot penetrate the Tuff Tex surface of the deck with fasteners.
Anyway, I appreciate all the responses and help. I'm sure everyone is bored as hell with this by now. Like I said previously, I'll post some pics and you'll see waht a mess this guy has created. My standard line to this architect is "This proposed detail goes against my field experience and my instincts as a builder. But if yopu can tell where you did it before, put me in touch with the contractor who did the work, and find a way for me to go and see how this has held up for a few years, I might believe it can be done and feel comfortable putting my name behind it."
He's never done this anywhere before.
Sorry to have written a couple of novella length posts about this. The job is an obsession for me at this point trying to get it finished without opening myself up to a large amount of liability yet still looking out for the clients and getting them what they want in a quality job that will last. This architect only cares about trying to get this house featured in some magazine somewhere and then moving on. I'd rather not incur liability for the sake of some short-lived publicity I don't care about anyway..
 
#16 ·
Request specific detail drawings of attachments and document your concerns. The bottom line is that the builder is responsible to build to specification, and is also liable for design errors when it gets into the courts.

I have seen a similar situation, and the contractor, faced with an untenable design, simply refused to build it to specification without a wavier of liability, which the architect and owner refused to sign, leading to a redesign that would work. My Pops doesn't suffer fools.
 
#19 ·
I dont presume to know anything about the arrangement between you, the ho and the archy. Strictly from a deckbuilding perspective, what you described about the tapered trex sleeper/rips, adhesive, and ipe, I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. you really need to get these ho's accept the reallity here and your expertise that this is a lose/lose plan, that being said, it sounds like your working relationship and profitability with these people is not compromised, so
Deck is built to specs(elevation), specs have been changed/oversighted by archy, now short of raising the door, you are to get decking down without comprimising the membrane, or the decking...
mabey something like this will work out better http://www.stonedeck.biz/
 
#24 ·
I dont presume to know anything about the arrangement between you, the ho and the archy. Strictly from a deckbuilding perspective, what you described about the tapered trex sleeper/rips, adhesive, and ipe, I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. you really need to get these ho's accept the reallity here and your expertise that this is a lose/lose plan, that being said, it sounds like your working relationship and profitability with these people is not compromised, so
Deck is built to specs(elevation), specs have been changed/oversighted by archy, now short of raising the door, you are to get decking down without comprimising the membrane, or the decking...
mabey something like this will work out better http://www.stonedeck.biz/
Thanks Bone!. When there is a problem such as this, I try to go to the HO with a solution or several choices that might resolve the issue rather than just telling them there's a problem. I'll include this in my lengthy presentation about how best to dig out of this Archy's nightmare.
 
#25 ·
Trex is the wrong thing to use. It has no strength to retain any screws from the decking. In fact, I avoid trex altogether
I have done many rooftop decks over the years. In fact we finished one today.
Glue 1" styrofoam down to the roof (leaving gaps for water to flow). Then glue 2x4 pressure treated to that, then screw your deckboards to that. Works perfectly. The first one I did was 25 years ago, for a relative who owned a commerical roofing company. It's still in good shape. (the relative isn't)
 
#26 ·
Trex is the wrong thing to use. It has no strength to retain any screws from the decking. In fact, I avoid trex altogether
I have done many rooftop decks over the years. In fact we finished one today.
Glue 1" styrofoam down to the roof (leaving gaps for water to flow). Then glue 2x4 pressure treated to that, then screw your deckboards to that. Works perfectly. The first one I did was 25 years ago, for a relative who owned a commerical roofing company. It's still in good shape. (the relative isn't)
Thanks Stone. But again, the problem this archy has created not only doesn't make sense to begin with, he has left no alternative for one that does. In most cases with these decks in question, I have a starting point, the lowest point in the slope, of about 2" vertically that I can use for the sleeper. As the slope rises, that clearance tapers to 3/4", the thickness of the Ipe that will go over the tapered sleeper, thus giving me a level deck surface. This idiot has proposed that since there is no room for a sleeper at all in those areas with short vertical clearance I should glue the Ipe directly to the TuffTex deck surface. I haven't considered doing this to any serious enough degree to even verify if TuffTex might be somehow reactive with polyurethane construction adhesive to a point where it might eat a hole in the waterproofing. But it's a possibility.
I've called a meet with the archy and his little toxic dwarf minion assistant, and the HO's to once again explain that I won't do this period. Waiver or not, and if the archy can't come up with an acceptable plan, they will have to hire someone else to execute on a design detail that will surely fail and cost a lot to fix. Thanks for the response and I posted some photos in the job site photo section that shows some of the deck conditions.
 
#28 ·
I pitty you man. Wish I had something helpful to say, but I looked at the pics you put up, and I can't think of anything to do. Keep us posted
Thanks, will do. I've basically got my a** covered as long as I don't go ahead and lay these sleepers and the rest of this guy's horsecrap plan. I protested from the start, let the HO's know that, and was promised a detail that would meet or exceed standard construction practices. For now, it's the archy's prob.
 
#31 ·
OK, I looked at the pics. I was thinking of a much larger scale deck. The solution is simple and one that I have done on boat cockpits (Although I prefer Teak to Ipe). Don't build decking, per se, build wood grates that are not fastened to the membrane at all. It looks good, is easily removable for service and allows for both drainage and ventilation.
 
#32 ·
OK, I looked at the pics. I was thinking of a much larger scale deck. The solution is simple and one that I have done on boat cockpits (Although I prefer Teak to Ipe). Don't build decking, per se, build wood grates that are not fastened to the membrane at all. It looks good, is easily removable for service and allows for both drainage and ventilation.
BINGO! Thanks! I have seen that done on floors in Asia. Yes, I could see how a boat cockpit would need this type of application.
I had not thought of this, I was so hung up on the whole thing having to be attached together for structure. Do you know if Teak is less prone to twisting and cupping than Ipe? The thresholds are Teak, it would be a good match. My only remaining concern is where the slope is highest I don't have any room for an undercarriage for the grate so that the top deck tread boards can attach. I These areas are fairly minimal. I can possibly just let the boards cantilever off where the undercarriage of the grates taper out to near zero. In any case, doing it this way will allow me to remove it with no damage to the waterproofing, whatever happens.
Also, check out the attached pic. This is the full-on roof deck, the largest of the decks in question. I think I can make individual grates for that as well, even though it's a larger area. The archy had also wanted the Ipe to go up the sides of the parapet walls that we have on that big roof deck, not possible now because he didn't spec any stainless steel attachment angles there as he did on the roof deck stairs for the treads and risers, a pic of which I have also attached. Those angles are 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" and I can attach a sleeper to those with SS through bolts and a nut and washer, then assemble the treads and risers onto the U channel that fits over that sleeper. I won't bore you with that one. But it will work. And you've solved my problem.
Many, many, thanks! Bravo! Roof Reinforced concrete Construction Concrete Roofer


Wall Stairs Cement Concrete Composite material
 
#33 ·
Admitting that I have never worked with teak of planking sizes, (1x6), I have never seen teak cup, twist, or bow. We generally used 1x1 and 1x2 to build the grates, all notched and screwed. I see no reason it couldn't feather down to keep a level surface, though.

The stairs are a no brainer, and will look great.
 
#34 ·
For the larger roofing area (which is still smaller than some of the cockpits we used the grating on), I would suggest either cantilevered benches to cover the walls or slatting attached. Vertical surfaces are not as critical in regard to penetrations, and they can be re-waterproofed after the attachment points are made. Just make sure in either case that the grate fits the inside dimension so that they are able to be removed.
 
#35 ·
Haaa, I just had lunch at a little pizza place right around the corner from that house. I forget the name of it, but it was good! I did drive around a little bit looking at some of the other new builds going up. I like all the earthy pastels and smooth finishs, just like your place. My good buddy just moved back down to Venice so I went to see him. He is about 6 blocks away. If you ever need a cook on the jobsite, he is very good. Asst. head chef at Marina Del Rey yacht Club. I bet your loving that it is finally cooling off a bit. Good luck with your decking issue, I can't help ya out in that department but I do know Tankless design and installation!!
 
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