New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected? - Flooring - Contractor Talk

New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-27-2010, 08:31 AM   #1
Pro
 
InterCounty's Avatar
 
Trade: Hardwood Flooring Contractor
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 240
Rewards Points: 896

New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Does anyone know if the new EPA lead rules that went into law last week will effect hardwood flooring "renovation"?

Supposedly there are huge fines, and there are training seminars for lawyers on how to effectively sue contractors violating this new law.
InterCounty is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 04-27-2010, 08:52 AM   #2
Carpe Diem
 
angus242's Avatar
 
Trade: Smile 4 Tile
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,533
Rewards Points: 1,114

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Very good question!

Well, if we look at the rule, it says for homes with lead paint. I have not seen any mention of stain or clear coatings. So aside from dealing with a painted floor, my take is a typical stained floor does not fall under the RRP rule.

That said, I do believe we should wait for a certified remodeler who took the class to chime in before we go spreading misinformation.

Now that is not to say there isn't lead in these products. Hell, even ceramic tile can contain lead. But as long as these materials aren't include in the RRP guidelines, maybe we can learn something about the spirit of the law. Perhaps a bit of self-policing on the matter will be a good thing. I, for one, will definitely be more aware of how I contain dust during floor demolition.

Advertisement

__________________
Angus
angus242 is offline  
Old 04-27-2010, 09:00 AM   #3
Pro
 
InterCounty's Avatar
 
Trade: Hardwood Flooring Contractor
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 240
Rewards Points: 896

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


We had sanded a 100 yr old painted floor two weeks ago - with respirators on.

...I guess thats the last one we will ever do.

The laws says less then 6 sq feet of painted surface is ok.
So perhaps we can get away with a painted closet floor.

Now for installs Im going to have to add up the length and width of the base molding to see if it goes above six sq.

- or tell the HO to have the base and doors off before I get there.
InterCounty is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-27-2010, 09:54 AM   #4
Carpe Diem
 
angus242's Avatar
 
Trade: Smile 4 Tile
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,533
Rewards Points: 1,114

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by InterCounty View Post
Now for installs Im going to have to add up the length and width of the base molding to see if it goes above six sq.

- or tell the HO to have the base and doors off before I get there.
Yep, that's the same issue I have....damn baseboards. I guess if I cannot get a HO to agree to the necessary steps of following RRP for baseboards, I'll just have to start being a hack and leave the base in place & tile to them. Add my own shoe.
__________________
Angus

Last edited by angus242; 04-27-2010 at 10:01 AM.
angus242 is offline  
Old 04-27-2010, 09:57 AM   #5
Flooring Installer
 
rusty baker's Avatar
 
Trade: flooring
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 795
Rewards Points: 108

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


As I understand it. It really does not apply to flooring except for removing moldings or refinishing floors that have never been refinished since 1978. Factor in the 6 sq ft rule, it basically will never apply to base moldings either. And if you run into a pre 1978 house, dont remove and reset base, just install shoe molding and you are around that problem.
But you may be required to have the certification.
Painters are a different story. They are definitely required to have the certification, if they paint anythig built before 1978
And some old stains did have lead content, according to a friend who is a painter.
__________________
Flooring installer since 1973

Armstrong certified
rusty baker is offline  
Old 04-27-2010, 03:32 PM   #6
Sean
 
SLSTech's Avatar
 
Trade: Principal / Owner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 5,424
Rewards Points: 162

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Definitions 745.103 (wrong subpart but based on the correct subpart - these terms also apply)

Lead-based paint means paint or other surface coatings that contain lead equal to or in excess of 1.0 milligram per square centimeter or 0.5 percent by weight.

Baseboards are the kicker when it comes to flooring, except for the hacks as mentioned above (carpet guys get off easy - the rest of you, your toast especially if you accidentally demolish a piece of trim)

Ceramic Tile "should be" excluded as it is not a friction surface
Lead-based paint hazard means any condition that causes exposure to lead from lead-contaminated dust, lead-contaminated soil, or lead-contaminated paint that is deteriorated or present in accessible surfaces, friction surfaces, or impact surfaces that would result in adverse human health effects as established by the appropriate Federal agency.
__________________
SLS Construction & Building Solutions LLC Our Blog - The HTRC
SLSTech is offline  
Old 04-30-2010, 12:27 AM   #7
Particulate Filter
 
Metro M & L's Avatar
 
Trade: Flooring
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,430
Rewards Points: 1,484

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


I just did my first flooring bid after rrp earlier this week. Took the class Monday.

Anyway. Added line items for debris disposal and rrp compliance and cleaning verification. I was turned down. The client said I was 30% higher than everyone else. She said "They said there's no lead in the finish." "Are they going to test for it?" "Uh, I don't know." This lady had previously told me all about how she wants to protect her child from harmful fumes etc... Still came down to price.

RRP requires presumption of the presence of lead unless you can prove that it is not present. I don't want to assume liability for the testing. I know the client won't pay for the testing. So I assume its presence in target housing. You basically have to clean as well or better than required by the reg's for an oil finish anyway.
__________________
"A smart man learns from his mistakes; a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

www.portlandhardwoodrefinishing.com
Metro M & L is offline  
Old 05-01-2010, 01:41 PM   #8
Pro
 
Gough's Avatar
 
Trade: painting
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inland Northwest
Posts: 711

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metro M & L View Post
I just did my first flooring bid after rrp earlier this week. Took the class Monday.

Anyway. Added line items for debris disposal and rrp compliance and cleaning verification. I was turned down. The client said I was 30% higher than everyone else. She said "They said there's no lead in the finish." "Are they going to test for it?" "Uh, I don't know." This lady had previously told me all about how she wants to protect her child from harmful fumes etc... Still came down to price.

RRP requires presumption of the presence of lead unless you can prove that it is not present. I don't want to assume liability for the testing. I know the client won't pay for the testing. So I assume its presence in target housing. You basically have to clean as well or better than required by the reg's for an oil finish anyway.
What I'll be doing in similar situation is using the LeadCheck swabs as allowed by the rule (at least until September, when the rule changes) AND taking a sample to my local analytic lab. That sample isn't part of RRP and I just want it for my records should a question ever arise.
Gough is offline  
Old 05-01-2010, 10:24 PM   #9
Pro Grade Flooring LLC
 
Ed4x4's Avatar
 
Trade: Flooring: Carpet, Wood, Laminate
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 62
Rewards Points: 77

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Where could I find an official document of this law? I checked around on the EPA's site and couldnt find what I was looking for, only instructions and descriptions of what to look for.


EDIT::: Nevermind, found it.
__________________
Carpet, Wood, Laminate, Tile

Last edited by Ed4x4; 05-01-2010 at 10:29 PM.
Ed4x4 is offline  
Old 05-01-2010, 10:30 PM   #10
Member
 
frankster's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Blaine Wa.
Posts: 88
Rewards Points: 75

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Compliance guide--great summary of how to determine if this rule applies to you: http://epa.gov/lead/pubs/sbcomplianceguide.pdf
frankster is offline  
Old 05-02-2010, 10:36 AM   #11
Sean
 
SLSTech's Avatar
 
Trade: Principal / Owner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 5,424
Rewards Points: 162

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed4x4 View Post
Where could I find an official document of this law? I checked around on the EPA's site and couldnt find what I was looking for, only instructions and descriptions of what to look for.

EDIT::: Nevermind, found it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankster View Post
Compliance guide--great summary of how to determine if this rule applies to you: http://epa.gov/lead/pubs/sbcomplianceguide.pdf
Be careful following any "published" book, webpage or advice - most are outdated and do not protect you from not following the regulation.

The official regulation is found on the E-CFR site (link to full regulation)
__________________
SLS Construction & Building Solutions LLC Our Blog - The HTRC
SLSTech is offline  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:41 PM   #12
Pro
 
Willy is's Avatar
 
Trade: residential restoration
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Iowa
Posts: 388
Rewards Points: 250

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


My understanding is that the federal rules are the minimum. I am from Iowa and due to increased amount of lead here the state opted for more stringent limits than the federal.

You have to be careful what you accept as fact; some info could be old, some could differ regionally.

Willy
Willy is is offline  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:47 PM   #13
Member
 
primetimeon's Avatar
 
Trade: general contractor
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 73
Rewards Points: 75

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


I got my certification without even taking a course. I filled out the form from the epa paid my $300 and got my cert. They did not even ask if I took a class.
primetimeon is offline  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:53 PM   #14
Pro
 
Jaf's Avatar
 
Trade: Builder
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Worthington Ma
Posts: 389
Rewards Points: 250

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


To the OP, They did use lead in clear finishes back in the day. I was told in my class that clear finishes fall under the RRP laws.

To Primetimeon. Any company or individual can get the cert from the federal government for $300. Problem is, you need someone who took the class, to do the work. So, your not out of the woods, yet.
Jaf is offline  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:55 PM   #15
Wood Butcher
 
bhock's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodels/Custom Cabinets/Granite Countertops
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Buffalo, WY
Posts: 977
Rewards Points: 500

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeon View Post
I got my certification without even taking a course. I filled out the form from the epa paid my $300 and got my cert. They did not even ask if I took a class.
From my understanding you can get a cert. from epa without the classs but you still need to take the class.
bhock is offline  
Old 05-20-2010, 10:27 PM   #16
Member
 
primetimeon's Avatar
 
Trade: general contractor
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 73
Rewards Points: 75

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


How do they prove you took the class? All EPA shows is the cert. If the state checks all they will see is no cert or you have a cert.
primetimeon is offline  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:19 AM   #17
Pro
 
Jaf's Avatar
 
Trade: Builder
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Worthington Ma
Posts: 389
Rewards Points: 250

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeon View Post
How do they prove you took the class? All EPA shows is the cert. If the state checks all they will see is no cert or you have a cert.
The principle owner of the business only needs the cert. But when your disturbing the paint, there has to be a trained (took the class) person on site. When you take the class they issue an I.D. that says you completed the class. Someone needs to have this on them, when your doing the work.

Also, if no one took the class, it may be obvious anyway. Since in theory, you'd have little idea on what needs to be done.... no?

Your half-way in, might as well go the whole way. The cert isn't going to cover you by itself.
Jaf is offline  
Old 05-21-2010, 07:37 AM   #18
Focusing on solutions.
 
pinwheel's Avatar
 
Trade: hardwood floor contractor & so much more
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 5,112
Rewards Points: 144

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


I just wanna know where there gonna find the money to pay all the big brother epa police to enforce every remodel job across the country? Everyone know's were bordering on bankruptcy already.
pinwheel is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to pinwheel For This Useful Post:
PrecisionFloors (05-21-2010)
Old 05-22-2010, 12:34 PM   #19
Pro
 
KG007's Avatar
 
Trade: Flooring & cabinetry
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 416
Rewards Points: 268

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


I took the course last week and just took a break from writing my company policy on how we are going to approach this. i'll try to bullet point the highlights.

1. This is an extremely onerous regulation on potentially ANYONE who does work for hire inside or outside any house built pre 1/1/1978. Potential fines are enormous for the residential contractor and the regulation is like using a steamroller to kill an ant, IMO.

2. To do work in lead paint environment, you must be a certified firm. to be a certified firm you pay a fee and register with EPA. I think it is $350. You do NOT have to be a certified person for the company to be certified, just pay the extortion to the government. HOWEVER, to be in compliance, you must have at least one certified person and all persons, employees or subs, on the site must receive training if they are not certified themselves.

3. Any house or residential dwelling built prior to 1/1/78 is automatically considered to have lead paint UNLESS proven otherwise. The testing has to be done by a certified person (more extortion money to take the class).

4. Exclusions are for a) areas that don't contain lead paint (i.e., rooms that don't) {which means you have to test each room}, b) energency renovations, c) minor repairs and maintenance, d) renovations performed by the homeowner.

5. "Minor" means interior work disturbing less than 6 sq ft of painted surface per room, or < 20 SF on exteriors.

6. The "opt out rule" supposedly goes away 7/26/2010 and there will be no exceptions.

7. The opt out rule is for those who meet all criteria of: a) the owner lives in the house, b) no child under 6 resides in the hose, c) no pregnant woman lives in the house, d) no child-occupied facility exists on the property, and d) the owner signs a written opt out.

8. Lead was used in some old varnishes and stains, so I'm told.

9. You must provide the owner (and residents if rental or common areas) with the EPA pamphlet "Renovat Right" not more than 60 days in advance of starting work. They have to sign for it, or if not you have to send it certified/return receipt at least 7 days in advance. (Rentals, apartment buildings, etc., you have to get this to everyone with written proof of doing so.)

My personal reading of this means flooring only would not fall under this IF painted surfaces over 6 SF are not disturbed, i.e., no baseboard removal, and hope the shoemold is not over a collective 6 SF, and any sanding is not of a floor with lead on it. IF you stir up dust in any way you are screwed - the trainer on this claims "the lead dust migrates thru drywall or plaster and is absorbed into the wood framing members, and will go thru floors, so if there is another dwelling below you have to warn them, get the pamphlet to them, make sure there are no kids or pregnant women, etc." Thus plastic to contain the dust.

So, if you create dust taking up old flooring, a jerk inspector can potentially claim you are stirring up lead dust and stick you. This COULD include carpet take-up, since carpet gets dusty and they can claim it is contaminated. YOU have to prove otherwise if they want to be jerks. To get old flooring out you supposedly have to encapsulate it in plastic, use a HEPA vac to clean it off, and somehow get it out without "containimation" of other rooms. Standards on HEPA vacs, respirators, tools you can use (no power tools without HEPA filters), how you have to fully suit up, clean up, etc.

LOTS and LOTS of extensive crap on exactly how you have to set up work sites, clean up, signs for restricted area, homeowner cannot be in work areas unless accompanied by a certified person AND fully suited up, etc. You need to take the course to learn all of it. Have to have plastic on the floors, etc. Doesn't matter if it is stupid or the opposite of what OHSA says, we are the ones who get ****ed.

HUD applicable house is WORSE.

My policy, written today, says we add a line item for $8 for ALL jobs for regulatory burden; will not accept any HUD job period; have a lead testing charge for all pre-1978 jobs of $24 for 1-3 tests, $48 for 4-6 tests, etc. (You may have to do a dozen or more tests in a big job. All "dissimiilar" surfaces have to be tested and one positive makes it all a lead job.) I now requre an opt out or we may not do the job. I estimate cost can add 5% on the simplest job, double the cost or more of some jobs.

How many people are interested in starting a campaign to get Congress to rein in EPA? (Assuming they listen to anything other than themselves talk.)
KG007 is offline  
Old 05-22-2010, 12:51 PM   #20
Pro
 
Gough's Avatar
 
Trade: painting
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inland Northwest
Posts: 711

Re: New Federal Lead Law - Are Floors Guys Affected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeon View Post
How do they prove you took the class? All EPA shows is the cert. If the state checks all they will see is no cert or you have a cert.
In your application, did you notice the part where you had to attest that you will only employ "appropriately certified individuals"? Part of the documentation that you must have includes not only the firm certification, but also the certification of the indivudual who took the RRP class.

Advertisement

Gough is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EPA Lead Based Paint Certification Training THIS MONTH--Indianapolis ChrWright General Discussion 14 11-16-2011 05:36 PM
Hud announces $13 million in grants to protect kids from lead paint Brickie General Discussion 22 05-15-2010 02:09 PM
April EPA Lead Rule Question flatlander745 Health & Safety 5 05-13-2010 01:48 PM
Is there any Online lead that allow you to preview the lead before buying? Leonardorribeio General Discussion 0 03-15-2010 09:03 AM
Lead with a great budget Five Star General Discussion 9 02-26-2009 12:29 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?