Is MDF green - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

woodmagman · 03-03-2007, 02:13 AM

For MDF to be green, would it not need to be a product that is made from recycled products or protects the enviroment somehow?

Boogga · 03-05-2007, 02:19 PM

yes

woodmagman · 03-05-2007, 09:44 PM

I have never been through a MDF plant, been on a tour through an OSB mill. (You think your Ginsu is sharp, it is a mini bike compared to a Jet Fighter)

It uses real logs of poplar, eating them up as if there is no tomorrow.
Is MDF made from recycled dust or do they create it form full logs?

dougchips · 03-05-2007, 09:52 PM

Hey how about all the glue they use is it green? The other thing is mdf generally fails hence having a short life span (crappy furniture, countertops, book shelves..........).

woodmagman · 03-05-2007, 10:10 PM

What type of glue is it? I think it is water soluble, hence the melting when wet. A lot of crappy products are green. Just like vegetables. Brussels spout in particular.
“Crappy” but they are good for you.
Actually the verdict is not in for me on MDF.
I know I hate to work with it because of the dust; it makes me ill so I don’t. I can walk into a house that has been cleaned and smell the out gasing…..

paintr56 · 03-06-2007, 05:01 PM

woodmagman,

I would not consider mdf to be green. I think to be truly green a much longer life span would be in order for building materials. As far as recycled wood I think mdf is made from fast growing trees grown on farms I would consider that the next best thing to recycled and maybe as good.

I think long term a big part of the green movement has got to be making things that last and can be repaired at a reasonable cost instead of thrown out and replaced. This is something that at one time was the way it was and some where we lost it.

Jim Bunton

Rollo · 03-08-2007, 12:52 AM

It's all about the initial cost, Jim. Large builders throw up crappy boxes at low price. Buyers look at the price tag and go with what is cheaper. What do they care, they are only going to live in the house for a few years, then sell it and move on.

The buyers who care about these things seem to be few and far between, but it seems to be getting a little better.

KD@Northeast · 03-15-2007, 07:48 AM

In order for MDF to be green. I t has to be formeldahyde free. Medex and Medlite being two expamples. I just used both product on a 6 story silver certified apartment building and they worked fine.

Medite II - http://www.sierrapine.com/products/mdf/mdf_mediteII.htm

Medex - http://www.sierrapine.com/products/mdf/mdf_medex.htm

john5mt · 03-17-2007, 03:58 PM

You would think that finger jointed would be the most green because it doesnt use any petrolum products. But then some would say that wood isnt green because youre using products from the earth instead of man made products. But then isnt everything that is man made still from products that are from the earth. Hence nothing could actually been impact free on the enviroment. For instance Bamboo flooring is now considered green. But if everyone switched to bamboo trim, doors, floors, and frame lumber (is that possible) would eventually people start screaming out that we are depleting the worlds supply of bamboo?

dougchips · 03-17-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john5mt

You would think that finger jointed would be the most green because it doesnt use any petrolum products. But then some would say that wood isnt green because youre using products from the earth instead of man made products. But then isnt everything that is man made still from products that are from the earth. Hence nothing could actually been impact free on the enviroment. For instance Bamboo flooring is now considered green. But if everyone switched to bamboo trim, doors, floors, and frame lumber (is that possible) would eventually people start screaming out that we are depleting the worlds supply of bamboo?

One of the reasons that bamboo is "green" is because we can grow it very easy--we can not deplete the resource.

KD@Northeast · 03-19-2007, 03:17 PM

I thought that was what they said about oil

dougchips · 03-19-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD@Northeast

I thought that was what they said about oil

They said it about corn and now "the Mexicans can't afford to eat because we are buying up their corn supply as using it as fuel". <-- heard that on the radio last week!

Maybe it's a plot, starve the Mexicans and we can take their oil and plant bamboo?

Jimmer · 09-27-2007, 09:52 PM

It's standard in the wood products industry to sell your dust & chips to a board manufacturer, at least if you're not burning them to produce heat/power for your dry kilns or plant. I'm not sure if it all goes to MDF (dust & glue) or some makes it to particleboard (chips & glue with a little dust). The products are so highly engineered, they might be made to specific blends of trees & chips, I really don't know.

I do my best to stay away from them for several reasons:

—While veneer core plywood actually uses more glue, it holds it better so it outgasses significantly less of it. I don't know if that means that it gasses off over a longer time, but you definitely get less in the air. As KD@Northeast said, you can get boards made with isocyanurate adhesives, in fact, for museum work it's standard, but they cost 60% more the last I checked. Most MDF & particleboard is made with urea formaldehyde, and you smell the formaldehyde outgassing.

—Engineering is great, but I'll take inherent structure, thanks. The bigger the wood, the better the strength if it's been damaged by, say, moisture. The smaller the particle, the easier water seems to get in.

—Water makes the wood swell, and that breaks the adhesive bonds in engineered boards.

—The weight is a killer. I'm not a young buck any more.

—Smaller particles hold screws worse. In fact, try test assembling an MDF cabinet. You'd better use longer screws the second time you put it together, because the original ones won't hold worth a damn.

—Smaller particles make a more rigid board, but it breaks and shatters more easily. Particleboard & MDF will also sag over time whereas veneer core ply will not.

There are five ways the engineered boards are better: cost, flatness, integrity of the core (the veneer core industry has no shame, core voids are not graded as a defect), ease of finishing edges (at least for MDF, that was the reason it was invented) and huidity related shrinkage equals that of plastic laminates. In every other respect, veneer plywoods are better.

BreyerConstruct · 09-27-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmer

It's standard in the wood products industry to sell your dust & chips to a board manufacturer, at least if you're not burning them to produce heat/power for your dry kilns or plant. I'm not sure if it all goes to MDF (dust & glue) or some makes it to particleboard (chips & glue with a little dust). The products are so highly engineered, they might be made to specific blends of trees & chips, I really don't know.

I do my best to stay away from them for several reasons:

—While veneer core plywood actually uses more glue, it holds it better so it outgasses significantly less of it. I don't know if that means that it gasses off over a longer time, but you definitely get less in the air. As KD@Northeast said, you can get boards made with isocyanurate adhesives, in fact, for museum work it's standard, but they cost 60% more the last I checked. Most MDF & particleboard is made with urea formaldehyde, and you smell the formaldehyde outgassing.

—Engineering is great, but I'll take inherent structure, thanks. The bigger the wood, the better the strength if it's been damaged by, say, moisture. The smaller the particle, the easier water seems to get in.

—Water makes the wood swell, and that breaks the adhesive bonds in engineered boards.

—The weight is a killer. I'm not a young buck any more.

—Smaller particles hold screws worse. In fact, try test assembling an MDF cabinet. You'd better use longer screws the second time you put it together, because the original ones won't hold worth a damn.

—Smaller particles make a more rigid board, but it breaks and shatters more easily. Particleboard & MDF will also sag over time whereas veneer core ply will not.

There are five ways the engineered boards are better: cost, flatness, integrity of the core (the veneer core industry has no shame, core voids are not graded as a defect), ease of finishing edges (at least for MDF, that was the reason it was invented) and huidity related shrinkage equals that of plastic laminates. In every other respect, veneer plywoods are better.

Wow!

Thanks for the lesson!

~Matt

orson · 03-06-2008, 07:43 PM

One thing not mentioned about MDF, It is quite literaly impossible to contain the dust from cutting it. I don't care what you do the sawdust is so fine and spews out, around, up out and all over the place in a manner that is impossible to contain. So basicaly every time you cut it you are spewing formaldahyde dust all over the place and then breathing it in, if not right away, in a bit after you need a break from your dust mask.

Give me good ald fashioned sawdust any day.

www.rubycon.us
Ruby Construction LLC
Lancaster Kitchen Remodeling
Lancaster Bathroom Remodeling

toolwiz93 · 03-06-2008, 09:17 PM

The whole "green" concept I think is a little misleading. Any products that we as builders use have an impact on our environment. When it comes to wood and wood products we need to realize that it is a renewable resource. To manage the products we produce from the wood that is building green. When we build we should pick the right products for the application not what is the cheapest thing to get the job done. Why would you put mdf somewhere that there is the possibility of it getting wet. We all know it just will not hold up, but there are many things that it is useful for. I have always found it odd the amount of treated lumber used for fences and decks. Will those structures last 20 years or more? I know they won't last the same amount of time that it took for that wood to grow. On the other hand look at hardwood floors, they can last forever. Just another thought on green products, we need to consider the amount of energy it takes to produce them. Whenever electricity is used there is a by-product that is going to catch up with us eventually. Wind, Water, and Solar are exceptions but how many factories run on those sources. Being smart with our product choices will go a long way. This might mean that we have to give up our F-350 DIESEL to haul a cup of coffee and a briefcase.

Dmax Consulting · 08-19-2008, 01:10 PM

KE@northeast,

When you say silver certified, are you referring to LEED Certification?

MALCO.New.York · 08-19-2008, 01:17 PM

Do they use an Off-Gassing glue/resin/epoxy to hold it together???? YES? Then NO! It is not even close to being "Green".

DeanV · 09-23-2008, 05:30 PM

Since when are the MDF edges easy to finish? They are a paint on the cut ends and the edges that are finished of door casings have so much texture lately it is pathetic. Add all the thin line depressions running the entire length of the piece of trim that need to be filled and you have one pain in the..... product to finish. I agree with the others too that if it off gases, then it is not green. Formaldehyde is bad and I believe one mentioned isocyanates in other products and those are bad cancer stuff too.

**Teetorbilt** · 09-23-2008, 06:53 PM

One must also think of the energy in transportation (oil based) & processing/manufacturing (most likely coal based) + binding chemicals (?).

Green? Probably not. Decent product? Also probably not. Recyclable? I don't know.