Chris Johnson

1. Which ICF are you comparing yourself to? 1" on the outside? There is no way you could use 1" of foam as a concrete form and expect it to hold concrete pressure. All ICF's I use vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but the range is 2 1/2 to 2 3/4" of EPS both inside and out giving a measured R-value of 22.5 concrete gives you another R-.5 per inch approx. but now add in the thermal resistance and based on your climate and the acting number could be a little higher or a lot higher.

2. Again, this is an engineers call, 90% of what I do is slab on grade with the ICF going right on top of the slab

3. & 4. I take it were good...end of discussion

5. Sure they can used for many other things, EPS is just one of those things that it gets used for, it's a by-product

6. True, but are certainly cheaper then a crane and it's yearly insurance costs and operating costs, etc. Face it, neither one of us will convince the other on this one.

7. I thought we were talking about the whole house to the roof here. Okay basements only...do you want to know how many times (almost every project) someone says make the openings bigger for larger windows. This includes both basements and above grade.

8. And what about changes?

9. You have me lost on what you are saying in #9

10. I had previously priced your type walls on a condo townhouse project to give it a shot, manufacturing costs were identical to my ICF material and labor costs and I still had the shipping costs to the site and the erection costs.

But here, I'll make you a deal...I am a Canadian citizen living and working in the US with a work Visa, I can travel freely between the two countries and work in both places.

find 2 identical projects in your area, I will come up and get my old Canadian counterparts together from Ontario, 4 of us in total. You start in the factory on your panels, we will start in the field. I'll bet you, a night out for the crews, Dinner in Napa Valley, Cocktails and Party in San Fran afterwards we can build and pour, waterproof, clean up faster than you can set up, pour, move to site and erect, dampproof.

To be fair, my counterparts and I have a system, especially on basements, up to 2500 sq.ft. of floor space (We start Monday, unload the truck, load everything, bracing, scaffold, rebar, window bucks, tools, etc. into the center of the basement, and then build, pour Tuesday, beer by 3:00 (mandatory after concrete pouring), Wednesday morning, two guys waterproof, two guys strip bracing and load up, home by lunch. Realize that by the time the carpenter gets the floor system installed, concrete has reached 70% and with the floor system in it is ready to backfill. Give me the electrical layout, I will cut the electrical chases when I am done and install the boxes as well.

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Chris

joasis

Unless you show independent research from construction engineers to the contrary, you would have hard time beating down ICF's in favor of pre-cast anything.

Disputing where the EPS product is obtained as an argument is silly. You also say you can insulate conventionally, but where is this a savings? ICF's need no further insulation, and the energy used to create the form is also an extremely effective insulation system.....if not, SIP's would not be around...they would drop the EPS and make "chip board" slabs to place on a job site.

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sawyerEd

[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]1. Which ICF are you comparing yourself to? 1" on the outside? There is no way you could use 1" of foam as a concrete form and expect it to hold concrete pressure. All ICF's I use vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but the range is 2 1/2 to 2 3/4" of EPS both inside and out giving a measured R-value of 22.5 concrete gives you another R-.5 per inch approx. but now add in the thermal resistance and based on your climate and the acting number could be a little higher or a lot higher.[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. But your R-22.5 wall is 11 1/4 " thick. The point of my weight quotes in the previous post is that ICF walls fill space with concrete that is used for insulation in intelligently designed precast units. You can load up your ICF wall with thicker EPS to attain good R value, but your wall would be nearly impervious to water vapor on both sides and this is unacceptable on many sites where a breathing mechanism in the building envelope is necessary.

2. Again, this is an engineers call, 90% of what I do is slab on grade with the ICF going right on top of the slab[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. Wrong again. The product choice is your recommendation to the client. The engineer shows you how to make it work.

3. & 4. I take it were good...end of discussion[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. Yes. I already won those points. Your statement that ICF forms create the "ideal environment for curing concrete" damaged your credibility on these issues. Precast walls are cured in a moisture and temperature controlled environment where the concrete can reach its greatest strength potential.

5. Sure they can used for many other things, EPS is just one of those things that it gets used for, it's a by-product[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. This statement is utterly false. EPS is not a "by-product" in any sense of the term. Styrene monomer is manufactured from petroleum as one of the intended products of a chemical engineering process as is the pentane used for the expansion of EPS board. EPS manufacture consumes oil and for this reason should be reduced in our buildings where it is possible to use other insulation that is made from reused and recyclable materials.

6. True, but are certainly cheaper then a crane and it's yearly insurance costs and operating costs, etc. Face it, neither one of us will convince the other on this one.[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. I use a crane because it is cheap for me and a skilled operator can place the precast walls and the rest of the building quickly and efficiently.

7. I thought we were talking about the whole house to the roof here. Okay basements only...do you want to know how many times (almost every project) someone says make the openings bigger for larger windows. This includes both basements and above grade.[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. You've got to call this changing stuff off at some point, don't you Chris? You're gonna go broke doing this! This argument is based on speculative fantasy.

8. And what about changes?[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. More speculation. Concrete is hard to change in both systems. Using your ICF forms as a modeling blocks for the client is wacky.

9. You have me lost on what you are saying in #9[quote=Chris Johnson;571053]
s. I stand by what I said in my original post. ICF walls require more construction of the exterior skin to protect it from moisture intrusion and UV deterioration. The precast walls I examined in Pa. were delivered with an attractive beige sand finish that complimented the siding and were already damp-proof.

10. I had previously priced your type walls on a condo townhouse project to give it a shot, manufacturing costs were identical to my ICF material and labor costs and I still had the shipping costs to the site and the erection costs.s. Difficult to do but I will try to get the people at the above mentioned companies to buy into this plan. There are tracts where nearly identical house are being constructed at the same time. This could be interesting.

sawyerEd

EPS comes from oil which is a nonrenewable resource. Chris maintains repeatedly that EPS is a by-product. Incorrect and misleading, a blatant attempt to cover up the facts about its manufacture.
I don't have to beat ICF down, you guys are doing the job for me!
ICF walls have redundant vapor retardant layers on both sides of the wall which at some in the life of the building will be exposed to moisture from some source, the original pour for instance. That moisture will stay in the wall because it will not be able to diffuse easily through the 2 - 2 3/4 inches of EPS to the inside or outside of the building.
SIP's have the insulating foam as one non redundant layer inside the wall where it can be skinned by various finishes that have usually some permeability. Precast sandwich or superior walls have that too. Thanks for making my point for me.

joasis

The only point you have made is the fact that you have nothing from any independent sources....everything you have posted is product information to promote the system you like, and to attempt to detract from ICF's, which are independently tested and proven.

EPS can be obtained from a 'virgin" source, or a 100% recycled source....depends on the market and location. If you want to lecture us about these products, try to become more informed first. Just because the manufacturer of a product you like says so, does not make it a fact.

There exists enough independent research out there to verify what we do.....or if you wish, to attempt to back your claims that IFC's are inferior to your product....and I haven't seen you source one yet.

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Chris Johnson

Well, I'm done with you, J's correct in you posting what a manufacturer tout's.

So far you have not 'won' any arguments, you are promoting a different or available product giving people more choices.

The funny part is you are talking up a storm and promoting a product you don't have any hands on experience with either..You saw a project in PA..

J nor I have 'insulted' your product, you have 'insulted' our choice, perhaps you need to try both and others before commenting too deeply, you maybe surprised in what you actually learn.

Look outside the box. It's a big world.

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Chris

ContractorPete

There is a thing called a monolithic pour. That is a standard operating procedure for us. Results in the strongest footing to wall tie you can achieve....eliminates one pump in some cases (reduces pollution) and is ready for drainage plane and back fill right away.

Its a byproduct of petroleum production. Benzene. Since when is oil not renewable?

How long does it take to grow a tree?

I really can't justify a response to that. Lol.

Speculative fantasy? No its called real life. It happens all the time on jobs. Customer changes their mind on a window size, dimension or what not...perfect opportunity to capitalize and make a little extra money.

Ive worked with SIPs, Ive dealt with the headaches of drawing 'cutsheets' and the headaches of panels coming to the job out of spec because someone manufacturing the panels couldnt read a tape. Panelized systems are as efficient as they are applied. Simple jobs, spec jobs - Fine, probably a viable option in terms of budget friendliness and speed. Flexibility....hardly.