ICF Product

orson

Was reading upo on this ICF form system, thought it looked good so I'm sharing....also curious what the experienced ICF guys think.....

http://products.construction.com/Man...51159/overview

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joasis

They all do about the same thing....I don't know if the concrete deck form they show is something I would use.....and the way they present their corner would lead a guy to think the corners others make are inferior...well, that just ain't so. The corners never have a problem, it is the straight walls sections, or poorly braced wall intersections.

I like BuildBlock, others in my area like Reward Wall....Nudura is a good brand...on and on. The key is how they are set on the job site. Bracing is critical....

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Chris Johnson

Your in PA? You should be seeing ICF around you like there is no tomorrow. Most of the eastern seaboard has it well covered with product and people to install.

If you are getting into the ICF business make sure you have a good solid distributor behind you for tech support and product inventory (both in and out).

I will tell you one secret...once you do it, you'll never go back. ICF days on my job sites the crew usually gets there before me...and will even stay late working because they are having fun. The days we are working with wood/steel...everyones usually a few minutes late.

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Chris

Green_Handyman

icf forms are not a green product. i havent worked with icf forms but they look unstable. i think a better resource would be EFCO forms, they cost a little more but you get engineering with your rental forms.

Chris Johnson

So what do you think we should do with the by-products left over from oil? Throw it back in the ground or maybe the ocean?

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Chris

Milhaus

ICF forms are completely green. I thought the same thing when before i researched them. Expanded polystyrene is air essentially. Concrete is concrete. It has to be built once in 100 years or more. They may appear unstable but once you pour the crete there is no question. The only waste is what you didn't estimate properly. There's no rot with concrete. They're no moisture behind your sheetrock. No questions for me - it's green.

mark

sawyerEd

ICF saves energy over time as long as it is used appropriately but raises a number of concerns. 1) It uses more batch plant concrete than precast concrete panels that are made with less high strength concrete poured under controlled plant conditions. Site poured concrete has higher carbon foot print than precast.
2) ICF foundations are poured on footings that are usually overdesigned for the expected loads and soil conditions. Precast concrete walls can ordinarily be placed on compacted architectural crush.
3) ICF walls place the insulating board on both sides of the concrete which negates the useful thermal storage (trombe effect) of concrete walls. Precast concrete walls have the insulating board inside the wall. Form poured concrete walls have the insulating board on the outside.
4) ICF walls encase the concrete with vapor retardant foam board which may be a problem where humid or poorly drained sites require a breathable wall.
5) The manufacture of EPS or XPS polystyrene polymer can hardly be described as "completely green". Polymer based insulating boards may not be acceptable for interior use in states where the VOC gassing off of building products is controlled. Precast or form poured concrete walls allow for the use of safer, more natural insulating materials on the interior.
6) ICF walls require the installation and removal of rigid adjustable bracing systems to prevent the walls from shifting during the pour which must be done by concrete pumps. Precast walls are lifted by crane and bolted together.
7) ICF walls cause delays while the concrete cures to self supporting strength. Precast panels are ready to be built on the next day.
8) ICF walls need to have their inside foam board gouged out to allow for installation of wiring and other services. Precast walls have service holes cast in the vertical webs.
9) ICF walls require waterproof membrane below grade and uv protective finish above grade. Precast concrete walls are already water proof and attractively finished above grade.
It is clear to me that 70% of all residential housing will in the future be with precast concrete walls, not ICF. We look forward to your rebuttals.

joasis

The information above is a real stretch....do you have a source, other then a manufacturer?

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sawyerEd

Go to www.superiorwalls.com. I looked at a completed building last spring in Berwick Pa. using this technology and a good photo record of the site prep and stages of construction. The basement was bone dry after two years and the walls were not yet finished so I had a good look at the service entries and looked carefully for signs of leakage. The home was located on a poorly drained site. The site prep people dug a drainage pit away from the house. The foundation drains emptied into a sump where a pump would evacuate the water to the pit. The HO had never seen the sump with enough water in it to start the pump even in the wet part of the year. The home is carefully graded and gutters/down spouts correctly installed. The foundation contractor did have a call back to replace the flange of the water service entry which leaked. The new flange fixed the problem. Take a look at one of their projects near you and get back to me. I could not see any downsides to this technology.

joasis

When you are attacking the system, ICF, without the science to back it up, then of course, I am skeptical. The idea of "negating the thermal effect" of an ICF wall is pure BS. Most of the statements above are just simply not accurate, or an exaggeration. While I have no experience with the precast system, if those claims above represent their marketing plan, then they won't ever have my attention.

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Chris Johnson

Okay...I'll play with you

1. Yes and No...Depends on engineering, as for the carbon footprint...please elaborate, are you referring to the number of ready mix trucks vs. less trucks for the panels? If so, yes you are right...but that won't gain you any LEED points.

2. BS, it is an engineer call not a product call. Nice try

3. ICF have insulation on both sides, it's the form and insulation, it also is part of meeting the min. insulation properties in the building codes, it works with the thermal transfer in mind. Insulation in the middle works as well but now you are left with exposed concrete, which is not readily acceptable BY CONSUMERS as a finished product in North America.

4. Again, BS, Inside of an ICF form is the perfect enviorment for concrete it slows the cure and helps make a higher compressive strength of the concrete because of the slow cure. ICF acts as both a vapor barrier and air barrier...please post all facts not just partials.

5. All ICF's I use are EPS...Expanded Poly Styrene...EPS is left over materials broken down and re-manufactured into ICF blocks, hence no VOC's of off gasing, that happens long before it leaves the plant to be delivered to me and that is why EPS does not shrink over a year like XPS does which even though it's denser it does off gas and shrink.

6. Precast walls DO require some form of temporary bracing as per OSHA while the floor system and/or roof system is being completed. ICF bracing (if professional purchased) is not only a bracing system, it is also a scaffold system which helps when installing the floor and/or roof system saving time and much safer than working of ladders.

7. Precast panels can be installed and worked with the next day, ICF can take longer depending on the crew and it's experience. I build a lot of custom and commercial projects, each has various degrees of field modifications which I can easily accomodate...you can't with major redesign and expense. Chances are your panels are made so far in advance they are ready before the project breaks ground since they need cure time in your yard prior to erection, so if a serious change comes in you could be stuck with some NFG panels or charge the client a huge change order...I can work on the fly right up till the pour.

8. See the later part of #7...I'm flexible to change

9. BS, again, all walls require waterproofing below grade as per building code, above grade residential customers in North America do not accept unfinished concrete as a finished surface, they want Stucco, Brick, Siding, Etc.

10. Let me add # 10...On a number of levels, first I have priced your product and have found the material costs were the same as my material and labor costs. I don't have a problem with your product, I believe it has a place in the construction field that I work in, you my friend have a closed mind and are trying hard to discount ICF rather than seeing it too has advantages and places where it is more beneficial than what you promote.

I look forward to your rebuttal

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Chris

sawyerEd

Okay...I'll play with you

1. Yes and No...Depends on engineering, as for the carbon footprint...please elaborate, are you referring to the number of ready mix trucks vs. less trucks for the panels? If so, yes you are right...but that won't gain you any LEED points.
s. You got a part of the yes, but you forgot about the “No”. Was that a rhetorical “No”? The embodied energy of concrete is indeed high (5 x timber) but that cost spread over the lifetime of the structure becomes small when compared to some other building products. Compressive strength, resistance to water damage/rot, ability to be formed into almost any shape and excellant thermal storage qualities make concrete a good choice for “green” building. Nevertheless concrete’s high initial cost and carbon footprint mean we should be careful to use it where its useful qualities are effective. Precast basements can be insulated with standard methods to R-24 or R-31.5. Plenty of LEED points to be gathered there.

2. BS, it is an engineer call not a product call. Nice try
s. You mean brain shock? Good engineering can help you reduce redundancy and waste in your projects, its your call. Your product is dictating what you do and not our need for foundations that drain well, are economical, and do not trap radon gas under the building.

3. ICF have insulation on both sides, it's the form and insulation, it also is part of meeting the min. insulation properties in the building codes, it works with the thermal transfer in mind. Insulation in the middle works as well but now you are left with exposed concrete, which is not readily acceptable BY CONSUMERS as a finished product in North America.
s. “Thermal transfer in mind”, would you care to elaborate?? Precast forms are available in a number of finish choices or brush finishes that readily adhere to a full range of decorative coatings. www.advanceprecast.com. ICF walls leave you with foamboard on the outside where it needs to be protected from physical damage, water intrusion and UV deterioration. With ICF walls, the actual outside wall skin that is “acceptable by consumers” still needs to be attached.

4. Again, BS, Inside of an ICF form is the perfect enviorment for concrete it slows the cure and helps make a higher compressive strength of the concrete because of the slow cure. ICF acts as both a vapor barrier and air barrier...please post all facts not just partials.
s. “The perfect environment for concrete.” You have some test evidence to support this sweeping claim? Precast concrete panels are cured in a humidity and temperature controlled environment that concrete needs to develop its full strenth. Redundant vapor and air barriers may be ok where you are but not in humid or cold climates. You need to read the extensive documentation on vapor control in walls; building science.com

5. All ICF's I use are EPS...Expanded Poly Styrene...EPS is left over materials broken down and re-manufactured into ICF blocks, hence no VOC's of off gasing, that happens long before it leaves the plant to be delivered to me and that is why EPS does not shrink over a year like XPS does which even though it's denser it does off gas and shrink.
s. There have been some efforts to collect and reuse EPS but it requires the manufacture of new EPS made from petroleum. Expanded Polystyrene polution has become widespread throughout the world and its use in food and beverage containers has been restricted in a number of jurisdictions. EPS is expanded using pentane vapor, some of this might be captured at the plant but some stays with the product to be released later. EPS and XPS board must be placed behind a fire rated wall because they release poisonous gases when they burn.


6. Precast walls DO require some form of temporary bracing as per OSHA while the floor system and/or roof system is being completed. ICF bracing (if professional purchased) is not only a bracing system, it is also a scaffold system which helps when installing the floor and/or roof system saving time and much safer than working of ladders.
s. Bracing rigid precast or wood frame walls can be easily and simply done. The form support system for ICF has to withstand the stresses placed on it by workers at the top of the wall and the hydraulic forces of liquid concrete being pumped and vibrated into the forms.

7. Precast panels can be installed and worked with the next day, ICF can take longer depending on the crew and it's experience. I build a lot of custom and commercial projects, each has various degrees of field modifications which I can easily accomodate...you can't with major redesign and expense. Chances are your panels are made so far in advance they are ready before the project breaks ground since they need cure time in your yard prior to erection, so if a serious change comes in you could be stuck with some NFG panels or charge the client a huge change order...I can work on the fly right up till the pour.
s. Bafflegab. I’m glad I won’t be paying for your “field modifications”.
.
8. See the later part of #7...I'm flexible to change
s. You didn’t address the problem. My electrician is finished and on his way home while yours is still gouging out foam for cable runs and boxes. I hope he wears his respirator when he cleans up the polystyrene waste; oh wait, i guess you have to do that. My local building inspector has advised that receptacle boxes be screwed into the concrete of ICF walls.

9. BS, again, all walls require waterproofing below grade as per building code, above grade residential customers in North America do not accept unfinished concrete as a finished surface, they want Stucco, Brick, Siding, Etc.
s. Dead wrong again. Asphalt or bitumen dampproofing is still being installed on most below grade walls. Waterproofing is only required where it can be shown that the wall will be under the ground water level or otherwise exposed to pooling water. Precast concrete panels are ready to be painted or stuccoed according to the owner's wishes. The EPS on the outside of an ICF wall is at risk of becoming saturated with water unless it protected with continuous membrane. www.superiorwalls.com

10. Let me add # 10...On a number of levels, first I have priced your product and have found the material costs were the same as my material and labor costs. I don't have a problem with your product, I believe it has a place in the construction field that I work in, you my friend have a closed mind and are trying hard to discount ICF rather than seeing it too has advantages and places where it is more beneficial than what you promote.
s. Thanks for making my points for me about the relative cost of two approaches to basement walls. Historically, ICF was a step forward from uninsulated basements, but as a basement system it needs to move aside for wall systems that take advantage of properly cured concrete’s strength and thermal storage capabilities and that provide effective methods of eliminating water vapor from the building envelope. Granted ICF basements will always have a place in the constuction of conditioned crawl spaces and on sites where cranes cannot operate safely.
sawyerEd

Chris Johnson

1. We are both concrete, I still haven't seen where you have a smaller carbon footprint. Where is this initial high cost coming from, high cost compared to what? A straw house, yes, we cost more, a conventional frame home? Not necessarily, depends on local installer experience and product use.

2. ICF products do not dictate anything, it is the engineer or designer who call the shots for footings, connection details, etc. Radon gas can be present in any building.

3. Sorry, thermal break, no transfer. All building products, yours, mine, conventional frame recieve some form of finish, yours may be able to be done in a factory, but not everyone chooses those available finishes and may want something that needs a field application.

4. I'll dig and get the 'evidence' for you. Think about, the enviorment is enclosed thus slowing the cure of the concrete and as we all know the longer concrete takes to cure the better it is. Vapor barriers are mandatory in cold climates, IBC, IRC and Ontario Building Code that I am aware of.

5. EPS is a by-product from petroleum products, we don't purposely dig into the earth to pull materials for ICF, we pull it for petrolwum products and the left over they don't need we use for products such as ICF and hundreds of other manufactured items.

6. That is what the ICF bracing/scoffolding system is designed for.

7. Obviously you have not had to work on projects with change orders, field modifications are standard on projects both residential and commercial. Nothing is ever built as drawn the first time in this world.

8. Your electrician had to be at the factory installing his boxes and conduit, mine was on another job before he came to my project. Again no room for Ms. Jones to walk around and add a fixture here or there. No, laborers clean up the waste no more than sweeping the floor from wood chips, etc. And your inspector is just that, local, each juristiction has it's own rules and those are based on experience.

9. You are correct, code is dampproofing, I still would want my house waterproofed with a drainage membrane installed as an added layer of protection and security. ICF does not become 'Saturated' with water, it can absorb some moisture but it is not a sponge, but than again if it is protected with a drain board and the property is graded properly water leakage should not occur.

10. You misread # 10, You cost more.

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Chris

joasis

[when compared to some other building products. Compressive strength, resistance to water damage/rot, ability to be formed into almost any shape and excellant thermal storage qualities make concrete a good choice for “green” building. Nevertheless concrete’s high initial cost and carbon footprint mean we should be careful to use it where its useful qualities are effective.]

I am getting the idea you are trying to throw product information on us like it is the holy grail. Like the BS of "gassing".....if it burns, it will gas.....duh. So will a conventionally built home with fiberglass. Inert EPS does not emit any "gassing" period, no matter what your rep tells you.

The thermal mass of an ICF wall is far superior to any pre-cast panel....and that isn't even a debatable point. Slick product information may "suggest" otherwise, but we know better.

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Chris Johnson

Hey J, you busy next week? I am at an ICF show in OKC.

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Chris

joasis

Call me....depending on the weather, I can get there. 405 853 1563

Too bad we both like such a crappy product!

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concretemasonry

Concrete and concrete block do not have as high a "carbon footprint" if you are among the "green" religion recently invented.

Block will always be more "green" than poured concrete because of more efficient use of materials.

Modern cement is made in some old plants with an average of 25% decrease in fuel used in the past 10 years thanks to the investment by international owners. Some modern plants use recycled tires for as much as 40% of fuel complying while being well under all EPA requiremnts and provide a way to use the large volumes of tires that still go into fill.

All the aggregates are local, so there is a minimum of fuel for transportation/processing compared to steel or wood where there is a great deal of fuel for transportation and processing. Aggregates are usually from vertical quarries, river deposits or pits that still do not use arible soil land and can easily be reclaimed into a natural settings. Timber is actually a very poor material for "green" benefits, despite some research showing impressive production use of CO2, but that is limited to a small part of the life of the vegetation. The prevention of errosion is not good for most of the life of a forest.

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Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

sawyerEd

Dick,
Don't get me wrong, the advantages of using concrete in earth-friendly designs is well documented. The carbon footprint of any product has a number of components and will vary in different places and from different sources. I am a timber manufacturer and I know the carbon footprint of timber products here. The "5 times timber" figure that I quoted above comes from "Building the Affordable House", Taunton Press by Fernando Pages-Ruiz, and frankly, requires some further explanation beyond the scope of these threads. -s.

Block will always be more "green" than poured concrete because of more efficient use of materials.[/QUOTE]

s. I agree as a general statement; careful using the "always" word though. Concrete Masonry Units and precast panels can have air channels in them that improve their dead weight, thermal resistance and drainage characteristics. They can have entrained air and lightweight recycled aggregates as well and are cured under controlled conditions.

Modern cement is made in some old plants with an average of 25% decrease in fuel used in the past 10 years thanks to the investment by international owners. Some modern plants use recycled tires for as much as 40% of fuel complying while being well under all EPA requiremnts and provide a way to use the large volumes of tires that still go into fill.[/QUOTE]

s. I agree. Modern lime kilns are cleaner and greener than they used to be. Its too bad we have to rely on foreign investment to solve some of our problems.

All the aggregates are local, so there is a minimum of fuel for transportation/processing compared to steel or wood where there is a great deal of fuel for transportation and processing. Aggregates are usually from vertical quarries, river deposits or pits that still do not use arible soil land and can easily be reclaimed into a natural settings.[/QUOTE]

s. Yes. Concrete is made from naturally occurring materials that are among the most abundant on earth. It does require substantial amounts of energy for its manufacture which is the principal component of its carbon footprint.

Timber is actually a very poor material for "green" benefits,[/QUOTE]

s. I cannot agree with this statement. Properly managed timber land has huge benefits to the ecological health of the planet. Improper management can have significant impact but I think timber companies are trying to address these problems. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point here.

despite some research showing impressive production use of CO2, but that is limited to a small part of the life of the vegetation. The prevention of errosion is not good for most of the life of a forest.[/QUOTE]

s. I have been a member of our local "Watershed Technical Committee" for twenty years and have some experience, albeit nontechnical, on forest management issues. I don't have much patience with sweeping statements about our use of wood products. Wood in its natural form from responsible producers is a good choice for "green" building. Again perhaps I am misunderstanding your last point about CO2, we may be on the same green team.
sawyerEd

B.K

ICF is great, and holds a lot of value with it. Ive used it a handful of times, and coming from doing foundations with Form boards and snap ties, its a nice breath of fresh air. As well i like the idea that you can build any kind of building from the foundation up with it.

Green products keep popping up in the construction industry, but you always gotta keep in mind, you'll not always convert people over to a greener product solely on knowledge and proof, because as builders, they will only do what they find works for them.

Going green is good, and there will be ways to cut-backs on "carbon-footprints." ICF is great proof of that.

-Bill

sawyerEd

[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]1. We are both concrete, I still haven't seen where you have a smaller carbon footprint. Where is this initial high cost coming from, high cost compared to what? A straw house, yes, we cost more, a conventional frame home? Not necessarily, depends on local installer experience and product use.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]

s. ICF basement walls in my district are usually engineered for 6 in. of steel reinforced concrete which weighs in at 80 lbs/sq.ft of wall. The forms generally have 1 in. EPS on the inside and 2 -2.5 in. on the outside for an R-value of 12-14 on a 9-9.5 in wall. A full sandwich concrete/gypsum board wall from advanceprecast weighs in at 67 lbs/sq.ft.but has an R-value of 22.5. Their waffle crete wall weighs only 45 lbs/sq.ft. but can be insulated with standard methods to R-19 and higher. Less weight more R value on precast wall. See my post to Dick the concretemason below.

2. ICF products do not dictate anything, it is the engineer or designer who call the shots for footings, connection details, etc. Radon gas can be present in any building.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]
s. ICF foundation walls must be placed on previously poured strip footings according to specifications. The interior slab floor is poured above the footings which creates an area of soil below the slab where water and soil gas can accumulate. Superiorwalls are placed on beds of compacted crush. The soil gas/vapor barrier under the slab can be continued horizontally over the crush to the outside of the foundation wall where the perforated tilke has been installed.

3. Sorry, thermal break, no transfer. All building products, yours, mine, conventional frame recieve some form of finish, yours may be able to be done in a factory, but not everyone chooses those available finishes and may want something that needs a field application.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]
s. OK.

4. I'll dig and get the 'evidence' for you. Think about, the enviorment is enclosed thus slowing the cure of the concrete and as we all know the longer concrete takes to cure the better it is. Vapor barriers are mandatory in cold climates, IBC, IRC and Ontario Building Code that I am aware of.
[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]

s. OK. I'm sure we have both been sideswiped by bad weather at the building site.

5. EPS is a by-product from petroleum products, we don't purposely dig into the earth to pull materials for ICF, we pull it for petrolwum products and the left over they don't need we use for products such as ICF and hundreds of other manufactured items.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]

s. I must admit you've got us flummoxed on this. Are you saying that the hyrdrocarbons required for EPS can't be used for something else?

6. That is what the ICF bracing/scoffolding system is designed for.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]

s. And they are not exactly cheap to buy/rent or quick to set up.

7. Obviously you have not had to work on projects with change orders, field modifications are standard on projects both residential and commercial. Nothing is ever built as drawn the first time in this world.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]

s. We were talking about basements here. I don't think you bring the site prep and footing guys back very often to change the footprint of the house.

8. Your electrician had to be at the factory installing his boxes and conduit, mine was on another job before he came to my project. Again no room for Ms. Jones to walk around and add a fixture here or there. No, laborers clean up the waste no more than sweeping the floor from wood chips, etc. And your inspector is just that, local, each juristiction has it's own rules and those are based on experience.[QUOTE=Chris Johnson;569946]

s. Holes for cable runs and pipe are already cast in the webs or studs of the precast panels. There are more than usually required.

9. You are correct, code is dampproofing, I still would want my house waterproofed with a drainage membrane installed as an added layer of protection and security. ICF does not become 'Saturated' with water, it can absorb some moisture but it is not a sponge, but than again if it is protected with a drain board and the property is graded properly water leakage should not occur.s. Up until what point? The ICF wall requires more work to prepare it for backfill.