Green Green Green - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Milhaus · 03-21-2007, 11:37 PM

No offense to anyone out there, but I am tired of seeing 'Is MDF green?' at the top of this site every day. It's driving me nuts. We can do better than that for all the one time shop folks out there, stopping in to the Green site to see if it's catching on yet....I know, I need to put my three cents out there more on this forum too.

I know there's more to talk about.

Pick a topic, any topic.........ok, what do you guys think about SIPS?

I listened to this cat talk at the university about them last week. They are simple to use, electrical lines are easily run, a nice tight seal (if that is what you are looking for), the bases are all covered from what I could tell. The university is killer lately...tomorrow night there is a residential geothermal 'specialist' talking. No charge...classroom setting. I love learning.

Gimme something here guys? MDF is killing me.

woodmagman · 03-23-2007, 08:33 PM

Is MDF Green

Milhaus · 03-24-2007, 02:42 AM

Grumpy · 03-24-2007, 06:58 AM

Sips confuse me as a roofer. Weather they be pre insulated panels like Sips or they be assembled on the building by spraying in closed cell foam insulation between the rafters, saps confuse me. I've brought this up many times but where does the moisture go that is getting trapped inside the envelope of the house?

When installing SIPS or creating a sealed envelope, is special ventilation needed to circulate the home air?

woodmagman · 03-24-2007, 07:50 AM

I have the same thought with quanta, if it is locked between the layers and is missed during inspection, will it cause transferable damage.

Silly
Call me uncivilized, I did not know what Sips was…………..Now I do. Love the technology, would be a bear for our fire and rescue guys if your standing on one during a blaze.

Milhaus · 03-25-2007, 11:10 PM

I don't like the idea of throwing a bunch of styrofoam in any house. It's not a good product. It never goes away. Ideally, that house you build would stay there forever, but houses fall, burn, and get torn down every day. Putting a bunch of material that cannot be discarded doesn't make sense. And like you said woodmagman, standing there while its burning is a sad sight. But, here again, it's pretty close to any other rigid foam we use every day now. It's hard to get away from it.

I do like the stability that they seem to offer. I'm always overdoing things, with SIPS it seems like it's a nice tight fit without any need to overdo.

Grumpy - I didn't get a good grasp on how that worked with insulating the roof at the lecture. The way I understand it, you don't insulate above the living space as you do now, you spray foam the roof, and rely on a increased mechanical system to maintain air quality throughout the whole house. I may be off on this.

blackrott · 04-22-2007, 10:03 AM

Sips panel are 3 - 4 times stronger than regular contruction. The foam is a webbing like the plywood in a TJI. It's a tension. compresson deal. Same comcept with a surf board. the thicher the foam the stronger the SIPs panael.
To make the home brethe you needs a air circulator. These homes are air tight and the home would mold with out it.

Most of the home we build are SIPS and we ues SIPS on the ceiling and exterior walls. the rafters we perfer to ues trusses. you can still venilate the attic etc.

foamhome · 10-10-2007, 03:54 PM

I have spoken with a few contractors and how 'easy' it is to build with SIPS. The main problem is that most are pre-fab in a factory and then assembled on site. You'd think that to be a good thing, but when things don't line up the way they should, you have to improvise. So you still need some skilled labor on site that can deal with that stuff.

They do make for a wonderful home though. If your sips are good quality and your contractor knows what he's doing, you'll have an excellent home with tons of upside.

10-24-2007, 12:20 AM

For the house, a commercial grade "flat" roof will be installed. It will use an 8.5" SIP roof, then tapered styrofoam that will have a 1/4" to 1' slope, then a single ply-membrane (either Durolast or TPO). We will also be doing rainwater collection as well. It's not hard with a SIP roof, just make sure its watersealed and done properly.

Mr. D · 10-24-2007, 05:23 AM

so many different ideas of green. the government will give you a green stamp for being energy efficient. my idea of green is more hippyesque. recycled material, renewable recources, no chemicals, etc.

so i would say since sips are styrofoam they are not green. they are however, energy efficient. its so hard to be green in every bodys eyes.

10-24-2007, 10:00 AM

SIPs are considered green for a few reasons, first and foremost, they save energy to heat/cool homes. 50% of carbon emissions are directly attributed to housing's energy consumption. Another reason is for the fact that most of the styrofoam in it is recycled and/or recyclable material. Add another fact that there is less job waste because SIPs are manufactured at the plant and little onsite work is done and less is thrown out.

You have to remember that green has a much broader meaning - there are 3 parts of it really, 1) energy efficiency/savings, 2) sustainability for the planet in recyclability and resource consumption and 3) toxin-free/healthy. Usually hitting one of those reasons makes it "green", but everyone strives to have all 3.

ApgarNJ · 12-01-2007, 07:25 AM

We did a dormer on the front of a SIPs house that was built in the 80s. timberframed with panels. the dormer was built with just regular 2x6 front wall and 2x10 rafters. well. the house design was cathedral ceiling, steep roof, and 2x6 pine on the inside. No vents in place because he'd be sucking out all his heat in the winter. so before the dormer, this had zero problems. not sure how the moisture was getting out. i know the 3 tab roof was still like new and it was 20-25 years old already. so something must be good about these panels.
anyways. after building the dormer and closing things up. we had soffit vent on the front of the shed roof dormer. the customer calls me up weeks later, saying he has water/which turned to icicles leaking out the soffit vent of the dormer. i went over to see how much condensation was leaking out the metal vent. it wasn't running water but certainly more than i've ever seen. we had put insulation with baffles in the ceiling. my consensus was that because the roof was SIPs, it had no way to get moisture out of the house until now. so the entire house was basically venting up through the 2x6 ceiling we put in the dormer. he hadn't sealed the pine yet. i haven't heard back from him but i guess after sealing it up good. he hasn't had the dripping problem. my concern is how do you really vent a house that has a sips roof and cathedral ceiling throughout? fresh air exchanger?

waysane · 12-04-2007, 10:24 PM

It maybe the easiest way on that system

Tony M · 03-06-2008, 07:21 PM

In the UK, the moisture resistant MDF is green in colour. I like to collect the sawdust and make sand castles with my kids at the weekends. Sometimes we add a bit of water and make mdf balls. We don't get much snow here.

ApgarNJ · 03-06-2008, 08:30 PM

i do the same thing but i freeze the dust/water on sticks and let my kids eat it for a snack that's healthy and zero calories!

**Teetorbilt** · 03-06-2008, 08:35 PM

GREEN is in. We all are going to have to deal with it at some point. Not that it's a bad thing.

Tscarborough · 03-06-2008, 08:41 PM

I can tell you don't have to do commercial submittals, Teetor. Green building, like everything else has already been carried to the extreme. For every single product on a project, there is a 2 page form that has to be filled out, in addition to the normal submittals. I am to the point of charging extra for the LEED submittals.

**Teetorbilt** · 03-06-2008, 09:25 PM

Ts, we have to face 'green' or go down in flames. It's coming, like it or not.

ApgarNJ · 03-07-2008, 06:48 AM

going green is a money maker, that's why no one is the mainstream press is going to tell you that we may not be be the main cause of it. they think we can cut emissions by 60-80% worldwide by 2050. are they crazy? the world will only be more populated by then. you can cut emissions somewhat but we as mankind can't CHANGE what the earth is going to do. it's been warming and cooling on it's own for millions of years.
i don't mind building green but i'm sick of every single commercial on tv about how we are causing this and we need to do this and buy a prius, blah blah blah. sick of it. it makes money for companies. they can charge more because people are helping out when they buy things.

on that note, i am going to look into it more because like teetor says it's coming whether we like it or not. so i might as well start learning as much as i can now, so i can be informed for customers in the future. and maybe be a step up on other contractors in my area that aren't up to date yet on the correct way to build efficient.

i still don't think we are the main factor in warming the earth.

toolwiz93 · 03-07-2008, 05:43 PM

The issue of sips has a couple good points. The energy savings are great and something I haven't seen posted yet is the amount of lumber it saves. Plus you have something on all your outside walls to fasten to. I might be wrong but it seems anything that provides good insulation doesn't disappear easily unless your building straw houses. I would like to ask a question related to the sealed environment that sips create. I wasn't sure whether the foam in these panels is closed or open cell. This means a lot when your talking about moisture and air infiltration. I have often wondered this same question about plastic being applied as a vapor barrier on exterior walls. A house needs to breathe some and I don't see how that can be done with closed cell foam or plastic. Just one more thing on the mold issue, houses can not be built so quickly that they don't have time to dry out. In these tract developments a house can have everything but the roof on, get totally soaked, and in a week or two it will be drywalled. Where is all the moisture going to go? Nowhere, so it starts growing mold right away in the stud cavities. Have you heard this "why is my drywall job seem so bad now it has only been a year". Well we put it over wet lumber, sorry. Just some thoughts.