Who Installs The Shower Pan Liner In Your Area?

rjconstructs

I've only had tile guys install the pan. We give them a flat, solid surface to set on and the rest is up to them. Having two or three different trades in there just makes it easier to pass the blame if anything leaks or has a problem.

Splinter

Gatell- do you build a preslope under your pans?

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Long Island Remodeling Contractor

jarvis design

In my 20 years of bathroom renovations I have yet to rip out a tiled shower (and there have been LOTS), that had a pre-slope. Every job the liner is sitting on the sub-floor, the mortar bed is saturated, and everything is black with mould.

The only way I do showers now is with Kerdi.

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Gatell Plumbing

123,

pgc555

Jarvis,
Do you think that is because many guys don't understand the the reason behind the pre-slope? I'm guessing that most of the tile guys know the reason. Old school mud pans are SUPPOSED to let the water through. Our tile and grout IS NOT waterproof. The pre-slope ( in a perfect world ) was a design to get that water to the weep holes and out. I too have ripped out many mud pans and have yet to see a pre-slope. The liner will hold the water and mold and bacteria for as long as you let it, if the liner actually is above the curb a good distance and the installer at least sealed the corners well.
I have been looking into new methods myself to update the way I install shower pans.I see you are a Kerdi guy. Check out this thread and chime in as to what you think the problem was. Please understand that I am not slamming Kerdi. I said I am in process to find a new or different way to build showers instead of with deck mud.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ight=PermaBase

angus242

A Kerdi shower system is the answer (there are alternative competing products too). The system is well thought out and time-tested. It has been around longer than you may think.

As for the JB thread, my opinion is the OP had an improperly installed curb. Had he used the Kerdi curb (or as John suggested), he wouldn't be in that situation.

Building a moisture/mold resistant bathroom isn't rocket science, but it does take some common sense. We build all of our bathrooms without the use of paper building materials. We also are sure to waterproof all necessary areas. Of course, tub/shower stalls but we also do the entire floor and wrap up the walls by 3".

BTW, here's a picture of the last wood curb we demo'd

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Angus
L+M+O+P=C
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coolwater

Umm yeah.. pretty sure its the plumber
that is if its getting inspected

jarvis design

I would say the vast majority of contractors who build showers don't know that a pre-slope is required.


About the thread, without actually seeing a job like that , it is a little tough to figure out what went wrong. It sounds like the water was wicking from underneath.

As for Kerdi, I normally frame everthing, cover it with concrete board, then kerdi. I have used the kerdi curbs in the past and they work fine.
I haven't used the kerdi shower pans more than once or twice.

If you are really interested in learning more about Schluter Kerdi (and ditra), plus a wealth of good information, contact Schluter and find out when there next workshop is. Its normally a 2 day affair and they look after you quite well. The information is well worth it.

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angus242

The question still stands, if a plumber does the pan, does he pre-slope it?

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Angus
L+M+O+P=C
"Promise only what you can deliver. Then deliver more than you promise"

pgc555

Jarvis,
I agree, it seams like water from below in that thread. Angus asks a great question.If the plumber does it , does he do a pre-slope? I would like to get
more opinions on this. Does anyone else think it's time to train both trades
(plumbers and tile setters) how to do the pre-slope. We all know it's not rocket science BUT you have all seen evidence when it's not done right.I don't know how we could get union trades to cooperate in this piece of the construction of the shower pans but I think it would be a great step in providing a finished product for the homeowner/builder that would last for the amount of years it was intended to.I"ll get off my soap box now before I fall off. Anybody want to add?

P.S. I will look into the Schluter workshops. I'm in Chicago area ,I'm sure this is a big market.

Splinter

So what does that mean? Im in NY, so I dont know your local requirements... Have you in the past installed a pre-slope, and will you in the future?

Honestly, Im not trying to be the inquisitor, I'd like to hear the reasoning from a pro plumber about why or why not one gets installed...

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- Alex

Long Island Remodeling Contractor

protechplumbing

Plumber does the pans in my area by law.

I do not pre-slope. I have never busted up a floor during a remodel and found a pre sloped floor under the pan. Is it a good idea? Probably. Will I do it? No. Why? If pans have worked for the past 60 years without a pre-slope then why should I put one in?

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bwalley

I have pulled out a lot of pans, and I don't recall ever seeing one that was not run flat (No preslope) some had mold and mildew, some did not, the ones that had mold and mildew I doubt a preslope would have made a difference.

How is a preslope going to help when the pan leaks?

If the pan doesn't leak how does a preslope help?

jarvis design

The problem is the definition of "worked for the past 60 years".

Shower pans built without a pre-slope and subsequently no weep holes create a perfect enviroment for mould and bacteria to grow.

Just because it "works" which actually means "its not leaking" - does not mean it is the best way to build a shower.

There exists several other ways that will give you a much better built shower that is 100% waterproof - without the nasty mould and bacteria.

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angus242

It allows moisture that permeates through the mud bed to drain into the weep holes of the drain. Why would anyone want moisture to just sit in the pan? Mold will love you. The owner will eventually not.

While a plumber might not care about the proper way to construct a tiled shower floor, the tiling specs say a pan must be pre-sloped.


That's not the way to think. How many fail? I'm sure WAY more than you know about. You would put one in because tiling organizations that do testing and set the requirements for jobs to NOT fail for the industry say you should!

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Angus
L+M+O+P=C
"Promise only what you can deliver. Then deliver more than you promise"

protechplumbing

I have never seen or heard of mold growing in the mortar bed. I have never seen a pre-sloped shower pan. Until I start seeing pans mold/fail due to the lack of pre-sloping I will not be doing it. I am a master plumber. It's what I've done my whole working life. I'm a 3rd generation master plumber. Neither I nor any of my teachers has ever had a problem with pan leaks due to a lack of pre-slope.

I am the guy who gets the phone call when a pan leaks, not the tile guy. I specialize in leak location and service plumbing. I am the definitive authority on the subject, not the tile guy. I have done hundreds of pans (including for friends and relatives) and it has never, not even once, been a problem. That is my story and I'm done with this subject as there is nothing more that I can contribute. Tile guys, do what you will.

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angus242

This is absolutely one of the biggest problems with the construction industry; the inability of tradesmen to work with each other.

Protech, I'm sure you're a wonderful and caring master plumber. I can't call that into question. My issue is the attitude about the situation. Obviously, a tiled shower floor takes different trades to work together for a common goal. Your particular goal is a leak-free shower. Wonderful. As a tile installer, my goal is a properly-performing, mold and leak-free shower. Do you concern yourself with what happens to the mud bed? Doesn't really sound like it. You're saying all you care about is that the pan doesn't leak...period.

You use such definitive words like "never" that shows you are not open to any further information about the issue. How is it that the Tile Council of North America's stance on the subject means nothing to you? There is no way you or the plumbing industry can call themselves the DEFINITIVE authority on how the entire tiled shower floor performs. The TCNA spends way more time, money and effort on this single subject than you or I can in an entire lifetime. That is thinking in a small 60 year old confined box. I hope your process continues to allegedly work for you. However, for the very few that actually post on this site (compared to how many actually do this for a living), we have seen the problems flat pans cause...in person.

The answer? Plumber roughed-in drains, Kerdi-style pans or deck mud pre-slopes where allowed. In areas, not allowed, educate those who create and enforce building code that there is a better way of doing things. I'm sure 60 years from now, there will be an even better way of doing it.

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Angus
L+M+O+P=C
"Promise only what you can deliver. Then deliver more than you promise"

Mike Finley

Part of the reason I want the tile setter to do the entire pan if he is able.

Tile setters are up on tile and anything that will effect their tile, they follow the latest products and techniques, they stay on top of things like this. Also as mentioned one point of contact for problems and warranty. No he said, she said to deal with. No finger pointing at each other.

Tile setters simply do it better. Let the plumber rough the drain and vents and the two part drain.

protechplumbing

I beg to differ. The only time an issue has ever come up with a pan (in my experience anyway) was when the tile guy screwed something up. It's against the law for a tile guy to install a pan in Florida. Under Florida law, the only person that is allowed to install a pan is a licensed plumber.

I just went thru a fiasco where the tile guy did the pan and he flooded out the house.

As for mold, can someone explain this mold phenomenon? I’ve never seen it. What would this mold be eating? What is in that 1/4" layer at the bottom of the mortar bed that the mold is eating? The mortar? Are you saying that if I pour some mortar in a kiddy pool and then pour some water in after it hardens mold with start to grow???

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jarvis design

I have been ripping out mould infested shower pans for 20 years - not one of them was dry. Does mould not grow where you are?

Like Angus said, I am sure you are a well qualifiled plumber. If you say you are the definitive authority on shower pan leaks - how many were a result of the liner - not the plumbing?
As well, and I'm only going to say this once more, the fact that your mould infested pan didn't leak doesn't make it good!! Especially when there are better proven methods to do the same.

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