Tankless Heater Installation

22rifle

If it's gonna leak at 2 pounds it's gonna leak at 1/4 pound too!

flashheatingand

500 hrs and 5 year apprenticeship just to run gas pipe? You mean to say that as a licensed plumber, they will still make you take that much training?...I know this stuff can be dangerous, but one doesn't need that much training to install gas pipe.

flashheatingand

I don't see the big deal. As long as everybody is open, and upfront, and the system holds pressure, there should be no problem. Despite what the gas company says, they want consumption, so why would they want to make things difficult on their customers?

Grumpyplumber

It sure is.
At 1/4 psi the probability of the methane being dispersed is a little better than a higher volume of gas on the same leak.

Ramblinwreck

Ok…Ok…let me see if I have all this straight. Seems we have two options, Option 1 is to ask the gas company to install a new meter that will supply sufficient gas pressure so the existing 0.5 inch line will support 180,000 btu’s (a Rinnai 75LSi). Need to install pressure regulators at each gas appliance. Option 2, seems the jury is still out on option 2 of installing the Rinnai in the crawl space, run a new 0.75 inch gas line from the existing meter and plumb the hot water to the nearest fixture. Anybody want to weigh in on option 2?? And, yes we do plan to hire a licensed plumber when it’s all decided. Thanks.

Grumpyplumber

Ramblin, option #1 isn't an option...not in my state at least.
Gas co's won't provide residential service over 1/2 psi..you can inquire, but I doubt it.

You really should be going over these details with your own plumber...here you have guys from all over the country grabbing at straws...and at least one guy here who thinks plumbing is just a part time hobby.

You need to speak with a local.

flashheatingand

Sir, I do not think of plumbing as a hobby (i will bite at the bait). I never have given advise about plumbing issues. Apparantly, in Mass, plumbers and gas piping are seperate trades, and you don't know that much about the specs of running gas lines ("the weight of the meter"?). Instead of saying that the gas company will not permit the increase in pressure, you could actually ask about the details, it could be of benefit to you in the future. I certainly wouldn't act as arrogantly as you did. Where I live, water heating appliances is work for both hvac guys and plumbers. I had an issue similiar to this guy, and this is what I did. It was legal, and all is well as far as the home-owners go.
Frankly, the plumbing room at this website tends to be a little more interesting than most of the posts in the hvac room. I thought that this was a site to bounce off ideas. The general response was "get a pro". Man, that aint helpful to anybody. You and a couple other plumbers thought that the idea I gave was crazy talk, while some other tradesmen acknowleged that my idea was feasible. Come on Homey, the fact that you visit this site on your own free time indicates that plumbing is more than just a job to you as well.

Have a good week.

22rifle

If I could see the job I am certain I could come up with an excellent solution. But there is no way anyone can give the proper advise about gas piping and equipment over the internet. And most people should not be given advice about gas piping and equipment over the internet.

The best advice anyone could give about gas piping and equipment over the internet is "Get a pro." Gas is not something a DIYer should mess with. Gas is not something anyone should mess with unless they are trained.

Ron The Plumber

Gas Explosion While Plumber On Job

See what can happen, now go on out there and play with your gas line.

NOTE; BOTH THE PLUMBER AND GAS CO. WERE BOTH ON SITE AND SIGNED OFF ON THIS
GAS SYSTEM MOMENTS BEFORE THIS EXPLOSION


July 27, 2008

Councilman calls for probe into Flushing building blast
BY ANDREW STRICKLER | andrew.strickler@newsday.com; The Associa
July 27, 2008
As fire marshals sifted through the wreckage of a Queens building damaged by
a powerful gas explosion on Friday, a city councilman yesterday called for
an investigation into the blast that hurt 17 people, two of them critically.

"Some residents there have been told by people working in the building that
there were serious problems with the gas in the building," said Councilman
John Liu, who represents the area of Flushing where the building is located.

The explosion on Sanford Avenue, apparently sparked in a second-story
apartment kitchen, sent flames shooting into other apartments, buckled walls
and knocked air conditioners out of windows.

Firefighters said two people were critically injured and a third had serious
wounds. Fourteen others, including six firefighters, suffered minor
injuries, the Fire Department said.



The fire caused no structural damage, but charring, water damage, broken
windows and collapsed interior partitions left 37 of the building's roughly
90 apartments uninhabitable, the Buildings Department said. A fire
department spokesman said yesterday the exact cause of the blaze is still
under investigation.

Gas and water to the six-story building were shut off following a June 11
kitchen fire, according to Con Edison officials.

After the department received notice that repairs had been made, a
supervisor and two mechanics arrived at the building Friday afternoon,
according to Con Ed spokesman Chris Olert.

The group used a portable gauge to test pressure in six "riser" lines that
carry gas into the building and found all six to be in working order, Olert
said. The gas was turned on by 4:13 p.m. The explosion struck 11 minutes
later.

A plumber employed or under contract with building owner Alwall Construction
Corp. was with the crew and was aware the gas had been turned back on, Olert
said. Attempts to reach an Alwall official yesterday were unsuccessful.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.


Related topic galleries: Consolidated Edison Incorporated, Fires, Emergency
Incidents, Explosions
All topics

Grumpyplumber

The "weight" comment was a joke regarding your post...read your posts.
Arrogance is referring to a plumbing or gas fitting license as a cakewalk.
Where'd you get the impression I'm from Mass?

flashheatingand

I don't know what to say, I wasn't being condescending towards you or the plumbing trade as a whole. Honestly, where I live, the gas fitting license was a cakewalk. The test was relatively easy. I certainly don't claim to be a genius, and I passed with a little bit of review reading material from the gas company. Know how to read the tables, know the rules on venting, and pipe sizing. It's nothing that a journeyman plumber should have a problem with. So, the way I see it, if you already have a plumbing license, one might as well take the time to get the gas pipe endorsement as well. Having said that, perhaps the requirements where you live are different. I am Guilty for assuming.

I never ever said that plumbing is cakewalk. Wet crawlspaces, clogged waste lines, or digging, anyway you look at it, theres a lot of potential for a grumpy situation. As mentioned earlier, I just come to this room because it's pretty interesting to me and I think I can learn somethings here that I can take with me in the hvac field.

How did I figure your from Mass? Nobody from outside of Mass is a fan of the Patriots

flashheatingand

I agree with your takes (nobody should just take advise from someone on the internet blindly, and don't play around with gas because someone can get hurt).

I just intended to let the guy know that he might be able to keep original location. This would save him a bit of money (that vent pipe isn't cheap) in materials and time. If I simply said...just increase the pressure you'll be ok,... that would be irresponsible. But, I mentioned several times, get things inspected and be upfront.

Having said all that, perhaps I was a little eager to show everybody "look at what I know" without considering what could happen. So I deserve what came my way (a little bit). Well, if you can't take the heat...

Grumpyplumber

In MA a plumber does LP, Gas & plumbing...and yeah, the Pats logo would be a giveaway. (duh)

We have seperate LP & gas licenses, but a plumbing license covers them all...each take an apprenticeship.
They won't let anyone walk in, take a multiple choice test and walk away with a license, maybe you can see the insultive nature of your comment to some of us.
I'm not sure where you're from, but you may have picked up on an air of defensiveness with the boys here when it comes to the trade, especially with gas.

In my area CO deaths, explosions & fires are in the news every year, in the winter especially.
When a homeowner or handyman hop online & recieve encouragement to dabble in gas work, some of us view it as criminally stupid.
In my state, it is criminal.

Ramblinwreck

Frankly guys, I posted my question to avoid appearing like a dang fool when I do have a pro over to give me a quote on this job (a fool and his money are soon parted).
I hoped this forum would provide both the homeowner and I with enough information so we could either discuss these concepts intelligently with a plumber or discard them altogether. We’ll just look elsewhere for advice.

Double-A

I'm going to go out on a limb here and recommend two things.

First of all, let your plumber make the suggestions. You and the homeowner can then bounce the pros and cons around with the plumber.

As a plumber, I find it uncomfortable when I'm asked to do something I think isn't in the best interest of everyone involved and like to have some time to consider if I want to lay that option on the table. As a professional, that is my job, not the job of a non-plumber GC or home owner. No offense, but when it comes to installing high btu gas appliances, there is a lot to consider beyond venting and gas supply. There are things like make up and combustion air, clearance to combustibles in the event of a malfunction, etc.

Any gas burning appliance in the crawl space under a floor that is not at the minimum fire rated and properly fire stopped it a stupid idea. I'm sorry, but it is.

Don't think that just because you know something about this subject that you are qualified to discuss it with folks that deal with this day in and day out on a professional and technical level. You don't argue with your doctor, do you? Then why would you argue with the pros here?

Oh, and if you want to know what the gas purveyor in your area will and won't do, why don't you contact them?

__________________
"My clients’ wishes are the center of my attention." -- David Guido, a contractor in Woodstock, N.Y.
New York Times, July 20, 2006

Michael Thomas

"Frankly guys, I posted my question to avoid appearing like a dang fool when I do have a pro over to give me a quote on this job (a fool and his money are soon parted). I hoped this forum would provide both the homeowner and I with enough information so we could either discuss these concepts intelligently with a plumber or discard them altogether. We’ll just look elsewhere for advice."

Sorry I found this a bit late.

I don't sell, install or service tankless units, I just use them, I have 5 Takagi tankless heaters at my home, office and rental properties, all are now working well, but we encountered quite a few issues getting everything working properly, mostly as the result of the utility and the installers unfamiliarity with tankless installation requirements.

I've put up a web page about our experiences and how to avoid the problems we encountered, unfortunately it appears that I'm not allowed to post URL's until I've made 15 posts here, so:

Go to the site in my signature below
Scroll down the list of articles on the right hand side to: "Tankless Heater Installation - Don't end up in cold water"

As you can see I agree with the posters here it's very important to find an competent installer, but in my experience that's easier said than done.

Hopefully you will find the material above useful in understanding some of the issues well enough to evaluate installers.

__________________
Michael Thomas
Paragon Property Services, Chicago IL
http://paragoninspects.com

G&J

I am not a plumber. I just built a new home and hired licensed plumber recommended by two GCs and the local inspector.

1. Ran vent pipes behind three lavs where the medicine cabinets should have gone

2. Messed up tub valve took three months of return visits, I finally took the valve out and found an O ring jammed in the body

3. Installed dishwasher and flooded kitchen floor lifting half of new ceramic tile floor

4. Plummed tankless HW heater directly when instructions clearly state to use unions to get access to filter.

5. Same HW heater vent pipe is melting vinyl siding

6. Installed 10' of 1" copper at well pump then transitioned to 1/2" pex ( 14' ) because it was easier to run through floor joists then went back to 1" Copper to feed cold water manifold and water heater.

I should have hired the handyman. I realize this is the exception and not the rule but all the licenses in the world aren't worth CRAP if if somebody doesn't care about their work.

just needed to vent

plumberman

Your right its not. Hate to hear it but it sounds like you got shafted by the GCs and the inspector.

__________________
"To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself. Think for yourself. Question authority". ..

Grumpyplumber

In lieu of the thread you opted to post this on, some might get the impression you're looking for a fight, or to validate an opinion that plumbers aren't adequate.

I see it as a rant, I agree...there are some severe hacks out there.

Licensing doesn't guarantee competancy, however, specifically hiring non-licensed hacks is almost guaranteed incompetancy.

Welcome to the forum, try mingling a little with some of the long time member GC's, get a feel for the place.

ILPlumber

Seems to me it would be easier to just upsize the gas line size in the crawl to handle the load. Bumping pressure is a bad idea. It would take quite a bit of time by the time you vent all those new gas regulators to the outdoors.

If we are lucky we get 2 psi , maybe 5 if its a huge usage in a commercial setting.