Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel

**ChrWright** · 02-04-2009, 10:10 AM

Good morning,

Need some help with an issue we're having on a recent remodel--if anyone's willing to put in their two cents, I'd appreciate it. We completed this project 4 months ago, and for some reason the cold weather has brought on a sewer gas issue.

The house was built in the 30s with cast iron waste lines and galvanized supplies. We remodeled 3 baths on the second floor:

Bath 1--small full bath on a 3" vertical stack which has nothing else on it but a basement toilet and sink--it penetrates the slab on a front corner of the house. Plumber removed all drains and ran new in PVC, tying to the 3" c.i. stack. The vents were brought up into the attic in pvc and tied to the original iron vents (1 1/2" and 2" threaded iron, upsizing to 3" iron at the lead boot--roof is tile.) This bath has a small 4' tub, small console lav and 1.6 gallon toilet. Two vents service this bath.

Bath 2--full bath on opposite end of the house. This bath drains into it's own 3" stack as well with no other plumbing on this end of the house. All drains in this bath are also new, and tied to the 3" c.i. stack which for some reason runs down inside the main chimney. Vents are in pvc to the attic and tied to the existing threaded iron vents as above. This bath is a 5.5' tub, single lav, and 1.6 gallon toilet. Two vents service this bath.

Bath 3--New master bath.--THIS IS THE PROBLEM BATH. We have a sewer gas smell which seems to be emanating from the shower drain (custom mortar bed--clamping 2" drain on 2" p-trap.)

This was originally two full baths which were converted to one large master bath. All drains replaced with PVC as above. In this case--we tied to the 3" drain c.i. stack below the floor--the only other line draining into this stack before it reaches the basement slab is the kitchen sink. The exception in this bath is that we replaced the iron vents in the attic for this bath instead of keeping the original. There are two 1 1/2" vents--one serves the tub and a lav--the other serves the toilet, tub and second lav. They come together in the attic, upsize to 3" and go up to the original lead boot. Also tied into the 3" drain stack is a new 3" drain stack run up to within 2' of the attic and capped--for a future attic bathroom. (It comes up in the wall behind the shower.)

I had thought perhaps the vent had frosted over so yesterday I went into the attic and cut the vent so I could pull the 3" out of the boot and check it for obstruction. It was clear, but I did find a fitting joint which was not glued. I assumed this was the problem--but it was not.

Since finishing the project, I have parted ways with this plumber for attention to detail issues and a general bad attitude with my clients (the main reason I haven't called him out to fix the problem). This leads me to believe there may be a venting issue causing this problem. Before I go tearing into things I was hoping to get some feedback.

There are no bubbling/gurgling issues at any of the traps when the toilet's flushed, tub is drained, etc. The shower drain where the smell seems to be coming from shows water full in the trap--but stinks to high heaven when you put your nose down to it.

The next step I was considering was running the future bath 3" drain stack (now capped) up into the attic and tying it to the other vents to add more venting to the bath.

A house I worked in over the summer had a similar issue--but it was caused by a blockage in the main sewer at the street. The homeowner at the problem house tells me they've had the line augered to the street but I'm unsure how long ago. The houses in this neighborhood had combination sewers--in clay (gutters and house waste lines draining together). I am unsure if any of the underground lines have been updated or replaced (I suspect not).

Here is the house/project in question:

http://wrightworks.net/Showcase-Three.htm

(the problem bath is the first one on that page)

Any thoughts? Is this blow out? Would a smoke test show anything?

Thanks in advance.

bwalley · 02-04-2009, 10:17 AM

Loop vent the 3" vent into another vent, that may or may not be the cause, but the vent shouldn't have been capped off to begin with.

It sounds like a line was abandoned and not properly capped or eliminated.

neolitic · 02-04-2009, 10:31 AM

If the dishwasher is tied into
the sink drain, run it through
a cycle while you listen in
the shower.
If the D/W drain cycle makes
noises in there, I'd guess you have
some re-plumbing to do.

You know what the cat with
the guns would say then.....

**ChrWright** · 02-04-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

Loop vent the 3" vent into another vent, that may or may not be the cause, but the vent shouldn't have been capped off to begin with.

It sounds like a line was abandoned and not properly capped or eliminated.

All vents and drains were removed back to the c.i. stack which was cut in the vertical and tied to with new pvc. The 3" vertical that is capped is new pvc and goes up behind the shower for future use (attic bath). It "y"s into the 3" c.i. stack along with the rest of the bath.

bwalley · 02-04-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrWright

All vents and drains were removed back to the c.i. stack which was cut in the vertical and tied to with new pvc. The 3" vertical that is capped is new pvc and goes up behind the shower for future use (attic bath). It "y"s into the 3" c.i. stack along with the rest of the bath.

Do you still have access to the no hub fittings?

It could be a clamp is not tight enough.

**ChrWright** · 02-04-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

Do you still have access to the no hub fittings?

It could be a clamp is not tight enough.

This problem has only cropped up since the weather went cold and there have been no leaks below. A loose clamp would have meant a leak.

bwalley · 02-04-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrWright

This problem has only cropped up since the weather went cold and there have been no leaks below. A loose clamp would have meant a leak.

Not necassarily.

Obviously you know what the problem is and don't need any help, good luck with it.

SmithBuilt · 02-04-2009, 10:55 AM

This is just a thought. I had a similar smell on a recent remod I did, involving tiling the bathroom floor. This raised the toilets up just enough that a normal wax seal would not seal to the toilet. The plumber had to reset the toilets with two wax rings.

**ChrWright** · 02-04-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalley

Not necassarily.

Obviously you know what the problem is and don't need any help, good luck with it.

I appreciate your input... no need to get your nose bent out of shape.

neolitic · 02-04-2009, 11:13 AM

Chris,
I can't see your plumbing layout
in my head after reading, but I
think you said, kitchen sink and
shower tie together.
Once there was a similar problem
with a kitchen sink and a laundry
sink.
Turned out that when the D/W drained
the surge backed up into the L/S line,
and over time the build up of food
particles in the trap was causing
an obnoxious odor.
Had to redo the drain tree to fix.
Just though you might have a similar
situation.
Maybe when the real plumbers happen
by....
You know "Three Kings" is in the
neighborhood, right?
A PM might get some free advice?

**ChrWright** · 02-04-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neolitic

Chris,
I can't see your plumbing layout
in my head after reading, but I
think you said, kitchen sink and
shower tie together.
Once there was a similar problem
with a kitchen sink and a laundry
sink.
Turned out that when the D/W drained
the surge backed up into the L/S line,
and over time the build up of food
particles in the trap was causing
an obnoxious odor.
Had to redo the drain tree to fix.
Just though you might have a similar
situation.
Maybe when the real plumbers happen
by....
You know "Three Kings" is in the
neighborhood, right?
A PM might get some free advice?

Thanks Neo,

I'm going to look at the sink/dishwasher issue you mentioned. The bath in question is on the second floor, over the kitchen. The kitchen tie-in doesn't happen until the basement, and it appears to have it's own vent but the kitchen was updated, who knows when, and that vent may not be working.

I suspect there may be an issue of flat venting in the bath since the original stack came up in a wall that was removed.

neolitic · 02-04-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrWright

Thanks Neo,

I'm going to look at the sink/dishwasher issue you mentioned. The bath in question is on the second floor, over the kitchen. The kitchen tie-in doesn't happen until the basement, and it appears to have it's own vent but the kitchen was updated, who knows when, and that vent may not be working.

I suspect there may be an issue of flat venting in the bath since the original stack came up in a wall that was removed.

Aaah, missed that.
Chalk it up to age.....

plumber1a · 02-05-2009, 03:02 PM

Since the shower is trapped sewer gas can't get by the trap unless its not vented properly and is loosing it's seal. Have you tried to sanitize or negate the smell by pouring bleach into the trap? Is the shower tail piece clean, no smelly stuff in it. Are you 100% sure the smell is coming directly from the shower drain and nowhere else? You also mentioned the lavatory and water closet had an 1.5" vent, 2" is required on water closets.

jayson22 · 02-07-2009, 11:53 PM

Yes, try pouring bleach into the trap and make sure all traps are properly primed "filled" with water. If a trap that hasn't been used in a while loses it's seal due to evaporation, you would smell that sewer gas smell when there is movement through the pipes causing airflow.

**ChrWright** · 04-07-2009, 01:47 PM

Forgot to post the follow up to this.

I finally found the source of the problem. After eliminating all other possible sources--I got on the roof to look at the vent from above (a tile roof--one of the reasons I'd put off climbing up there).

The roof was replaced shortly before our work, but my plumber had slipped his new vent up into the existing lead boot--which had not been properly sliced and formed down inside the original iron vent pipe. It was only partially open at the top--around 1 1/4", and concaved down.

Should have got my ass on the roof in the first place, just to check for obstructions.

protechplumbing · 04-07-2009, 09:19 PM

Smoke test.

**ChrWright** · 04-07-2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protechplumbing

Smoke test.

Did you read the thread?

KillerToiletSpider · 04-07-2009, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrWright

Did you read the thread?

Hoar frost can be a real problem, glad you found it before you started ripping out walls.

protechplumbing · 04-07-2009, 10:45 PM

No, actually. I will do that now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrWright

Did you read the thread?

02-04-2009, 10:10 AM	#1
ChrWright View Profile ChrWright Builder/Remodeler Send Message Follow Blogs (2) Threads (3,563) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (6) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Builder/Remodeler Trade: Builder/Remodeler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Posts: 3,563	Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Good morning, Need some help with an issue we're having on a recent remodel--if anyone's willing to put in their two cents, I'd appreciate it. We completed this project 4 months ago, and for some reason the cold weather has brought on a sewer gas issue. The house was built in the 30s with cast iron waste lines and galvanized supplies. We remodeled 3 baths on the second floor: Bath 1--small full bath on a 3" vertical stack which has nothing else on it but a basement toilet and sink--it penetrates the slab on a front corner of the house. Plumber removed all drains and ran new in PVC, tying to the 3" c.i. stack. The vents were brought up into the attic in pvc and tied to the original iron vents (1 1/2" and 2" threaded iron, upsizing to 3" iron at the lead boot--roof is tile.) This bath has a small 4' tub, small console lav and 1.6 gallon toilet. Two vents service this bath. Bath 2--full bath on opposite end of the house. This bath drains into it's own 3" stack as well with no other plumbing on this end of the house. All drains in this bath are also new, and tied to the 3" c.i. stack which for some reason runs down inside the main chimney. Vents are in pvc to the attic and tied to the existing threaded iron vents as above. This bath is a 5.5' tub, single lav, and 1.6 gallon toilet. Two vents service this bath. Bath 3--New master bath.--THIS IS THE PROBLEM BATH. We have a sewer gas smell which seems to be emanating from the shower drain (custom mortar bed--clamping 2" drain on 2" p-trap.) This was originally two full baths which were converted to one large master bath. All drains replaced with PVC as above. In this case--we tied to the 3" drain c.i. stack below the floor--the only other line draining into this stack before it reaches the basement slab is the kitchen sink. The exception in this bath is that we replaced the iron vents in the attic for this bath instead of keeping the original. There are two 1 1/2" vents--one serves the tub and a lav--the other serves the toilet, tub and second lav. They come together in the attic, upsize to 3" and go up to the original lead boot. Also tied into the 3" drain stack is a new 3" drain stack run up to within 2' of the attic and capped--for a future attic bathroom. (It comes up in the wall behind the shower.) I had thought perhaps the vent had frosted over so yesterday I went into the attic and cut the vent so I could pull the 3" out of the boot and check it for obstruction. It was clear, but I did find a fitting joint which was not glued. I assumed this was the problem--but it was not. Since finishing the project, I have parted ways with this plumber for attention to detail issues and a general bad attitude with my clients (the main reason I haven't called him out to fix the problem). This leads me to believe there may be a venting issue causing this problem. Before I go tearing into things I was hoping to get some feedback. There are no bubbling/gurgling issues at any of the traps when the toilet's flushed, tub is drained, etc. The shower drain where the smell seems to be coming from shows water full in the trap--but stinks to high heaven when you put your nose down to it. The next step I was considering was running the future bath 3" drain stack (now capped) up into the attic and tying it to the other vents to add more venting to the bath. A house I worked in over the summer had a similar issue--but it was caused by a blockage in the main sewer at the street. The homeowner at the problem house tells me they've had the line augered to the street but I'm unsure how long ago. The houses in this neighborhood had combination sewers--in clay (gutters and house waste lines draining together). I am unsure if any of the underground lines have been updated or replaced (I suspect not). Here is the house/project in question: http://wrightworks.net/Showcase-Three.htm (the problem bath is the first one on that page) Any thoughts? Is this blow out? Would a smoke test show anything? Thanks in advance. __________________ Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50 www.WrightWorks.net - Facebook - Twitter - Carmel Remodeling Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here Last edited by ChrWright; 02-05-2009 at 09:31 AM.

02-04-2009, 10:17 AM	#2
bwalley View Profile bwalley Pompass Ass Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (2,090) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pompass Ass Trade: Certified Building and Certified A/C Contractor Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Plant City, Florida Posts: 2,090	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Loop vent the 3" vent into another vent, that may or may not be the cause, but the vent shouldn't have been capped off to begin with. It sounds like a line was abandoned and not properly capped or eliminated.

02-04-2009, 10:31 AM	#3
neolitic View Profile neolitic Curmudgeon Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,707) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Curmudgeon Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do" Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool" Posts: 11,707	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel If the dishwasher is tied into the sink drain, run it through a cycle while you listen in the shower. If the D/W drain cycle makes noises in there, I'd guess you have some re-plumbing to do. You know what the cat with the guns would say then..... __________________ Put your location in your profile! (Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

02-04-2009, 10:55 AM	#8
SmithBuilt View Profile SmithBuilt Pro Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (132) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Pro Trade: Commercial/Residental Construction Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Foothills NC Posts: 132	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel This is just a thought. I had a similar smell on a recent remod I did, involving tiling the bathroom floor. This raised the toilets up just enough that a normal wax seal would not seal to the toilet. The plumber had to reset the toilets with two wax rings. __________________ Tim __________________________________________________ _ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -Benjamin Franklin

02-04-2009, 11:13 AM	#10
neolitic View Profile neolitic Curmudgeon Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (11,707) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Curmudgeon Trade: carpentry/remodeling/"Yes M'am we do" Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beech Grove, Indiana, Birthplace of the "King of Cool" Posts: 11,707	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Chris, I can't see your plumbing layout in my head after reading, but I think you said, kitchen sink and shower tie together. Once there was a similar problem with a kitchen sink and a laundry sink. Turned out that when the D/W drained the surge backed up into the L/S line, and over time the build up of food particles in the trap was causing an obnoxious odor. Had to redo the drain tree to fix. Just though you might have a similar situation. Maybe when the real plumbers happen by.... You know "Three Kings" is in the neighborhood, right? A PM might get some free advice? __________________ Put your location in your profile! (Sorry....it seems there really are dumb questions)

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02-05-2009, 03:02 PM	#13
plumber1a View Profile plumber1a Member Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (60) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Member Trade: plumbing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA. Posts: 60	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Since the shower is trapped sewer gas can't get by the trap unless its not vented properly and is loosing it's seal. Have you tried to sanitize or negate the smell by pouring bleach into the trap? Is the shower tail piece clean, no smelly stuff in it. Are you 100% sure the smell is coming directly from the shower drain and nowhere else? You also mentioned the lavatory and water closet had an 1.5" vent, 2" is required on water closets.

02-07-2009, 11:53 PM	#14
jayson22 View Profile jayson22 New Guy Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (21) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity New Guy Trade: Plumbing & Heating Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Calgary Posts: 21	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Yes, try pouring bleach into the trap and make sure all traps are properly primed "filled" with water. If a trap that hasn't been used in a while loses it's seal due to evaporation, you would smell that sewer gas smell when there is movement through the pipes causing airflow.

04-07-2009, 01:47 PM	#15
ChrWright View Profile ChrWright Builder/Remodeler Send Message Follow Blogs (2) Threads (3,563) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (6) Toolbox (0) View All Activity Builder/Remodeler Trade: Builder/Remodeler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Posts: 3,563	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Forgot to post the follow up to this. I finally found the source of the problem. After eliminating all other possible sources--I got on the roof to look at the vent from above (a tile roof--one of the reasons I'd put off climbing up there). The roof was replaced shortly before our work, but my plumber had slipped his new vent up into the existing lead boot--which had not been properly sliced and formed down inside the original iron vent pipe. It was only partially open at the top--around 1 1/4", and concaved down. Should have got my ass on the roof in the first place, just to check for obstructions. __________________ Christopher Wright, CR: President @ WrightWorks, LLC/President @ Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50 www.WrightWorks.net - Facebook - Twitter - Carmel Remodeling Indianapolis Kitchen Remodeling Contractor - You Can Get There From Here

04-07-2009, 09:19 PM	#16
protechplumbing View Profile protechplumbing the pipe master Send Message Follow Blogs (0) Threads (497) Photos (0) Reviews (0) Projects (0) Toolbox (0) View All Activity the pipe master Trade: plumbing, solar Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Central, Fl Posts: 497	Re: Sewer Gas Smell--Recent Remodel Smoke test. __________________ Plumber, Repiping, Replumbing, Leak Detection, Solar Water Heater, Polk County Plumber, Lakeland Plumber, Winter Haven Plumber

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