Question About Shower System...

Mike Finley

PS for anybody else that thinks I am somehow too harsh or out of line in regard to:


I'm sorry you feel that way, however I'm not sorry for the opinion I stated.

I find it hard to believe that anyone here would agree that it is proper to install something with only luck determining whether it will work properly or not, or even worse black mailing a customer just to ensure you do your job properly.

plumguy

"Taco bell", "you are the master here" I'm sorry I no longer have time for you! You seem to be the site genius I'm sure you'll figure it out and it's starts with reading. You're comprehension of thermostatic systems is less than what I thought it was. Sorry, you have to go for coffee.

plumguy

There you go speculating again!! The gentleman was looking for advice not a reaming from SIR FINLEY!!

Teetorbilt

OK, it's new stuff and I understand. I'm still trying to figure out the water saving toilets.

Tom and Mike, cut it out! Sheesh! If you were my KIDS, you'd be sent to your rooms. Smartin' a bit too.

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You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein

mdshunk

Ummm.... never. Just one at the domestic hot water source, I think. The idea is to keep the water temperature very high in the tank so that less hot water is needed in the "mix" and the water in the tank lasts longer. Along with that, the higher tank temps retard legionella and other microbial growths. Same idea as the setup on the domestic coil of a hot water or steam furnace.

Multiple thermostatic mixing valves would be very unusual in resi, except some plumbers install a small cheap one at each toilet to temper the toilet water. In commercial work, they might send a "hot-hot" line to a far wing, and temper it with a valve when it gets there and mix regular "hot" at that far wing location.

(Since I got drug into this discussion somehow, I might as well participate. Don't nobody go getting all fussy with me. This is just very interesting stuff.)

Mike Finley

Sorry you feel that way plumbguy, inserting a little humor to lighten things up in an overly hostile thread is my fault. I didn't realize calling a Taco Valve, Taco Bell would be taken as a personal slight by you. (I'll make a mental note that you have no sense of humor, coupled with a mild case of paranoia so I don't make that mistake again.)

You are a Master plumber are you not? I could have sworn you stated you were. Again calling you the Master was in reference to you being a Master Plumber and was meant as respect not sarcasm. Unfortunately inflection and tone of voice does not translate well in type.

(HOWEVER PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS ALL IS SARCASTIC NOW SINCE YOU ASKED FOR IT)

Do what you feel you need to do, but my reply here was sincere and in the spirit of learning more if there was more to learn. Even though your replies have been nothing but haughty and heavy handed, indignant and of the "how dare you" types.

Even still if you ever are able to come out of your Ivory Tower or climb off your high horse and converse with the little people such as myself who you obviously hold your nose high in the air above, I'll be waiting for your responses.

Until then since there is nothing to go by it still appears to me that there is no greater benefit to turning up a hot water tank to shorten its life even faster and paying for the installation of multiple Taco Bells when for the same or maybe even less money a 2nd tank can be installed, besides I still fail to believe that even with a 150 degree tank setting and those valves a set up like that will deliver anywhere near the volume of hot water that 2 tanks in series will. But I guess it can't be decided here.

Respectfully,

plumguy

Tom R

Mike,

Thanks for 'acknowledging' the (at least what 'I' consider to be) the problem.

These things seem to me to be much more easily 'nipped-in-the-bud' when discussed openly.

Do you feel, in all honesty, that an answer like this, attacking the person and his way of doing business, - - rather than the 'trade' issue only, - - would encourage those 'on-the-fence' to have any desire to ask questions??

All I'm asking is for you to put yourself in his shoes, - - just a fairly 'new guy' looking to better his business and asking for help.

I can't speak for you, of course, but I can 'relate' to him, - - because 'I' didn't start out knowing everything either.

I feel his manner-of-questioning was simply friendly and inquisitive.

Thanks for your consideration.

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Tom R

There you go, - - I see you can try on the other shoe!!

This very same statement might just as well have been said from Knyte to you.

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Mike Finley

AHHH!

Thanks MD. Cripes, it took an electrician to explain it!

I get it now. I admit that is an interesting idea now that I finally get it. I can see the possibility of that solution probably being a nice cost effective work around for a marginal circumstance. Maybe what, extending a vertical spa full blast from 15 minutes to possibly 20 minutes? I would think you might get a 20% increase in usable hot water with something like that, maybe not even that much though, that seems optimistic perhaps. However I still see the negative effect of shortening the life of the single hot water tank and still not being effective in the scenario I was discussing.

However, I can see the possibility of that scenario working for a jetted tub. Say a 50 gallon tub being now able to be filled by a 40 gallon hot water tank.

Mike Finley

Tom, give it up buddy, go find AApaint to play with, you bore me with your constant goading to start sh#t, I ain't interested in your opinion.

Tom R

Thank you for your time, Sir, - - and good luck in all your endeavors!!

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Teetorbilt

You guys just don't get it do you?

To deal with you (on your own terms), ignorance is bliss but neither of you are happy.

Let it go and concentrate on the thread.

__________________
You can't solve you're problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems.

Albert Einstein

plumguy

plumguy

I hope he comes back real soon and thanks ya there sport!

mdshunk

No. Changing the water temp to 150 increases the net 120 degree hot water output by almost exactly 1/3; a 33% increase.

Take two parts 150 dgreee and one part 58 degree cold:

150 + 150 + 58 = 358 /3 = 119.33 average degrees out

Take all three parts from a regular 120 degree sepoint water heater:

120 + 120 + 120 = 360 /3 = 120 average degrees out.

Since you're using one part cold to every two parts "hot-hot" to make 120 degree hot, you have a 33% capacity increase.

Mike Finley

hmmmm, it's late and I'm getting fuzzy so I will have to think about this to make sure I am understanding this right.

Not sure what to think, but something doesn't seem right, it seems like you are calculating based on fixed parts, (2 parts 150 degree water, 1 part 58 degree water...) but it doesn't seem logical that it is that finite, since we are working with a continuous fluid that is going to not consist of perfectly defined parts of water at the same temperatures but a mass of a certain temperature water with more water flowing into replace water going out, it seems like an impossible math problem based on volume with infinitly variable temperatures between the existing heated water and the new water entering and mixing.

I'm not going to even re-read what I wrote, it confused me just typing it. I'm betting somewhere there is information about this online, the water heater manufacturers have to have lots of infomation about capacities and variations on temperature settings and how it effects out put over time.

Mike Finley

Thanks plumguy, I hope that the very least I may have done is awakened him to the need to not just wing it. If that is the case I helped him better serve his customer, helped his customer and possibly avoided him from a very costly call back that might have reduced his profits to a loss, all because of a few dozen words he read here.

Knyte260

Mike - I'm out there spending hours upon hours of research on these spa systems, and in the last 24 hours since my post, have almost doubled my knowledge of their operation. I'm not some dumb hack contractor, I'm the guy who goes and figures things out, isn't afraid to ask advice, etc etc.

And my customer is FULLY aware of my LACK OF EXPERIENCE in installing these systems. I've done over 40k in work for this customer in question, they obviously like how I deal with issues when they arise.

Once again however, I appreciate everyones advice on this board, and I ought to be paying admission to this comedy skit you guys pull with eachother!

I've got a shower to work on though, talk to you all later

Tom R

Good luck with it, - - and hey, - - that admission thing sounds like a go!!

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