Pex vs Copper: Meter to house - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

stillwater · 09-15-2008, 03:23 PM

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while reading occasionally and recently came across a situation that would benefit from some experienced advice.

My question:
Is there a reason to avoid Pex as a service line underground from the meter to the house? Any special considerations?

For anyone intersted in why I am asking, a bit of background:
I mainly do concrete, tile and stone work. A new job is 3000 sf of driveway being installed in an existing front yard to create a formal drive to the front of a house with a rear entry garage. When I asked the HO if there was anything that he knew of running under where the new driveway is going, he said just the water service line. Since most of the houses in this area are 40 or so years old, I asked if it had been replaced and if so, was it installed to correct depth. I've run into a few utility installations that were damaged by my equipment or a 10 yard concrete truck due to shallow installation. He told me it was the original line as far as he knew and he was thinking of replacing it. No better time than the present was my response since it's never going to be easier to do it compared to when the driveway is in.

The HO asked me to work with the plumber to get the line replaced before installing the driveway. No problem. I called out a plumber that sends me quite a bit of work and I do the same for him, although it is usually inside work like bathrooms or DWV repairs when we are in a slab. The HO also called out a plumber from the phone book to get a bid.

Both bids specified Pex as the service line. I was a little surprised that it wasn't copper. Although it has been several years since I have excavated a water line trench for anyone, I thought that copper was still the standard. The plumber I have worked with said that he doesn't do many supply line replacements as he typically does remodel work but that Pex is now the way to go. The bid from the phone book (big local firm that also does HVAC and electric) also spec'd Pex. Only differene in the bids was one suggested 3/4" line to a 3/4" meter and the other was 1" line for "better flow for just a little more money".

I'm not a plumber so I can't offer an educated opinion on the two bids that have been given but I do want to be able to offer the HO an opinion and some confidence that he is doing the right thing and that the pipe underground will last before putting a pretty expensive driveway over the new pipe.

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

CA PLMBR · 09-15-2008, 04:18 PM

Hello Stillwater,
First off I would recommend whatever material is being used to try and engineer it so that you have no changes of direction in the run under the concrete and that you merely CROSS underneath. Heres the reason. When I run a water service I always (when I have flat-work specs) try to run it shortest distance with no changes in direction because I also sleeve it with abs pipe 2 times larger (if 1" service 2" sleeve and so on) than the water service. That way if ever there is a problem with the piping under the concrete it will be easy to replace. Here in California our water services are run sch 40 pvc to the home then transition to a soft copper 90 bend up to regulator.I personally would not recommend using say...Wirsbo pex or Vangard pex (Zurn)...because with Wirsbo at least I have seen them go defective with pinhole leaks. The material seems too soft. I am not going to take the stance and say that I would not use pex. In fact of the pex brands I prefer the Wirsbo over all. I have had fewer problems with their connections (contraction type with ring) than other manufacturers. The type that Vangard/Zurn uses looks like the a Hobbits ring (crimp type) and enduring the construction process, manifolding, so on has not proven to be acceptable to me. Remember these are just my personal opinions. Now having said that there is a pex piping made by Vangard that is specifically designed for water services. Its called BruiserT. I know that its high density and that it is literally hard as a rock. I know the connections have a crimp-type fitting whaich as I said I am not a fan of the crimp type. However the fitting it connects to had 3 grooves and in those 3 groove sets 3 o-rings made out of what looks to be a red rubber. I do not like rubber on water systems but there are 3 o-rings. Research it and use your best judgement. Remember that copper has it's own issues as well theres a municipality where I live that has banned copper all together (above or below ground) due to the acidic soil and ph of the water. Nothing will live forever. I would use Bruiser if they had machined connections like PE pipe has on the market. Here are specs on BruiserT per Vangard website. Personally I would use K-copper. However with the price of copper where it is your talking about quite a bit of extra cost. If the homeowner wants to pay I would go that route but they can only make a decision if you give them all the facts. Good luck!

Blue skin for easy water line identification
UV Protection
Corrosion resistant
Resistant to attack from chemicals commonly found in potable water
Durable and flexible
25 Year Warranty
Available in 3/4" - 2" diameter
CTS sizes with 200 psi rating
IPS sizes with 160 or 200 psi rating

MALCO.New.York · 09-15-2008, 04:22 PM

Pex makes wrex!

mdshunk · 09-15-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

Pex makes wrex!

What the heck are you talking about?

MALCO.New.York · 09-15-2008, 04:25 PM

I am NOT a proponent or PEX. Wrex = wrecks

mdshunk · 09-15-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

I am NOT a proponent or PEX. Wrex = wrecks

Time to get with the program.

PEX is not your grandpa's polybutyl.

Go fourth and prosper...

MALCO.New.York · 09-15-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

Time to get with the program.

PEX is not your grandpa's polybutyl.

Go fourth and prosper...

Yes! This I know.....But there is more than one CAS concerning the integrity of this product.

Yes I also know that they have rectified the fittings dilemma.......Still not liking it.

MALCO.New.York · 09-15-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

Go fourth and prosper...

Can not....Not a Plumber!!!!

mdshunk · 09-15-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

Can not....Not a Plumber!!!!

What, are you kidding me? Everyone's a plumber deep down inside. It's not that hard. Sheesh.

MALCO.New.York · 09-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

What, are you kidding me? Everyone's a plumber deep down inside. It's not that hard. Sheesh.

And the worms leave the can............

**ChrWright** · 09-15-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdshunk

What, are you kidding me? Everyone's a plumber deep down inside. It's not that hard. Sheesh.

Wow...

Pex vs. copper and an us vs. plumbers grenade both in the same thread....

This should be fun...

rbsremodeling · 09-15-2008, 04:51 PM

Pex is **** I would allow a plumber put that crap in my house or any house i worked on. If a plumber opened a his mouth and the word pex came out I would drag him back to his truck.

Was I clear on not liking pex?

whats next 4" sharkbites??

stillwater · 09-15-2008, 04:51 PM

Thanks for the responses so far. I think this is going to go Pex. Not my house but I think it was an extra $400 or so to go with copper (95' of total line). That said, any other opinions would be appreciated. This HO has been a good customer of mine and also passed my name around for some other jobs so I would like to take care of him.

I think I am just going to bury a 2" PCV sleeve under the driveway. I think I can convince the HO that the small increase in price will be worth it in the long run. Won't take but a minute and then the plumber and I can work on our own schedules.

CA Plmbr, Thanks for the detailed response and for the notes on the Pex options. I will definately pass that along and I appreciate it.

KillerToiletSpider · 09-15-2008, 05:09 PM

Anything that has the expansion/contraction rate that plastic does is self destructive, it is only a matter of time before it fails. Just because it is underground does not make it immune to temperature changes.

22rifle · 09-15-2008, 07:21 PM

If the anti-PEX hysteria on this thread had facts to back it up I would not be laughing so hard.

KillerToiletSpider · 09-15-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22rifle

If the anti-PEX hysteria on this thread had facts to back it up I would not be laughing so hard.

How many PEX water services are still working after a hundred years of service?

They have yet to come up with a plastic water system that has not been proven to fail.

rbsremodeling · 09-15-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22rifle

If the anti-PEX hysteria on this thread had facts to back it up I would not be laughing so hard.

I stepped on a pex water service last week and shut the whole house water service down.

Picked up my foot and it started right back up

reveivl · 09-15-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerToiletSpider

How many PEX water services are still working after a hundred years of service?

They have yet to come up with a plastic water system that has not been proven to fail.

How many houses have I had to tear out CI after thirty/fourty years of service? (Let alone a hundred). There is NO plumbing system that has been proven not to fail. That's a logical impossibility.

MALCO.New.York · 09-15-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reveivl

How many houses have I had to tear out CI after thirty/fourty years of service? (Let alone a hundred). There is NO plumbing system that has been proven not to fail. That's a logical impossibility.

30 to 40 years is a the bottom figure for endurance acceptability.

Now...Was it the iron that failed or did it become occluded or rooted?????

Bet it WAS NOT the Iron itself!!!!

KillerToiletSpider · 09-15-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reveivl

How many houses have I had to tear out CI after thirty/fourty years of service? (Let alone a hundred). There is NO plumbing system that has been proven not to fail. That's a logical impossibility.

The 4" threaded brass water risers in the Carbide and Carbon building on Michigan Ave in Chicago are around 100 years old, and work just fine.