Mass. Suspends Csst Use

Driftwood

As of Nov. 28/ 08 All brands including new counter strike. Unions will like this.
Maybe there right!

threaderman

It wouldn't bother me any.I use it all the time but I love Iron-pipe,hence,threaderman.One thing my area has changed is that it will not pass inspection until it is bonded/grounded by a licensed electrician.There is alot of the stuff installed here that is not bonded and is a disaster waiting to happen,and it will happen.This only became effective within the last few months,way too late.Also equally disturbing is the fact that a small amount of flux will eat through the pipe within a year or less.I have a dedicated tubing cutter with does not come in contact with any contaminants,but you all know there are many hacks (where have I heard that phrase recently),that are unknowledgeable, or to lazy to carry a dedicated cutter.And the other draw-back is any exposed metal ,that remains after the jacket is cut,will decay in a flash if chemicals are present in the immediate area,like chlorines ,ammonias,common cleaners.It's like anything else,if it is installed properly there is little chance for potential problems.That was a mouthful.

__________________
Joe ---International Code Council Member

Your plumbing & gas specialist proudly serving Oklahoma City OK, Moore, Warr-acres, Norman, Midwest City, Edmond, Bethany, Forest Park

homebild

This is only a temporary measure designed to allow the powers-that-be to resolve differences in electrical bonding requirements between different manufacturer's of CSST gas pipe and what adopted gas and electrical codes require:

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocamodul...tice&csid=Eoca

Driftwood

Didn't know about the flux on cutter wheels. Took the gas tight class,nothing
mentioned. this was 2 years ago. Is this a new find on this info? Only used it once for a new gas stove,old home. The worst crawlerin My 47 Years in the trade! Made it somewhat bearable.

threaderman

Hey Driftwood,I was told directly from my Gas-tite rep. that even a small amount of flux will eat right through the pipe in short order,days to months.I was given this info. personally within the last year,so maybe it is a new find.Scary crap brother.I keep my tools very clean but man you never know.Glad I could help.Call your rep. to verify and let me know what they say.I run trac-pipe myself,but am certified on both.

__________________
Joe ---International Code Council Member

Your plumbing & gas specialist proudly serving Oklahoma City OK, Moore, Warr-acres, Norman, Midwest City, Edmond, Bethany, Forest Park

JamesNLA

I too was told to keep flux off the yellow jacket. I was never told it will eat through the SS pipe. I think that is a bit far fetched.

Driftwood, do you remember the guy that did your training for Gas Tite?

Homebild, is it true that Wardflex is telling plumbers, that after they take their training class they would "certified" to install the bonding wire?
Prior to the suspension who was required to do the bonding and did an electrical permit need to be pulled? I am assuming you are in the Mass. area.
What Electrical / Plumbing code does Mass use and are the ammendments specific to the bonding of CSST for different cities?
THanks,
James

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

threaderman

The idea of flux damaging the ss may seem far fetched to YOU,but when the rep. tells me not to do it ,I think I will side with caution and listen to the guy who is selling the stuff.I don't think he was trying to sell me a tubing cutter.

__________________
Joe ---International Code Council Member

Your plumbing & gas specialist proudly serving Oklahoma City OK, Moore, Warr-acres, Norman, Midwest City, Edmond, Bethany, Forest Park

Driftwood

Rubinstein supply Oakland Ca. Felt the instructor was hung over ,big time.
It was an underwelming morning. Looked a lot like the guy that sold Me
Shoes the month before,at Sears

JamesNLA

That's OK, when I train the companies that actually DO the repping I tell them not to get flux on CSST aswell. There are alot of myths and rumors going on with the "reps". Unfortunatly alot of these guys are washed up tradesmen or crappy salesmen that answered an ad they saw in the paper. I will say that if I do see some flus on the jacket...I clean it off. I do not intentionally leave it on there. Do you seriously think that CSST would get it's listings and ratings if a little flux would eat a hole in stainless steel? Again IMHO a little far fetched. This is not worth arguing over.

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

JamesNLA

LOL....LOL
He prolly was. The only reason I am doing trainings with these guys is because they pay me very well. Most could care less they just want a paycheck and a new account. Not all are morons, but there is a high turnover rate in that business. 3/4 have no clue what I am talking about when it comes to sizing pipe and accounting for pressure drops. As a plumber you should know the correct size of the pipe for the demand, I wouldn't trust any rep for anything let alone how to be a plumber. They can teach you how to properly cut the pipe and how to set a termination....that's about it. During QnA I love the "can't we just tell them to use 3/4" pipe for all tankless heaters?" I bury my face in my hands and simply say no.

Anyhow, if you have any questions about the stuff...fire away. Sorry your guy was so bad....I'm doing my best to change that...not having too much luck however.

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

Driftwood

When I mentioned drip leg, And He said " what's that?", I knew He was the SHOE SALESMAN FROM SEARS !

muck

its back.....


Enacted February 4, 2009

1. WHEREAS, Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing (“CSST”) is subject to nearby (a.k.a. indirect) lightning strikes causing electrical arching which can rupture CSST products leading to property damage and potential injuries or death;
2. WHEREAS, without prior approval by the Board of State Examiners of Plumbers and Gas Fitters (“Board”), it appears manufacturer installation requirements have been changed to require adherence to additional bonding requirements which has now been addressed in NFPA 54, 2009 edition (not adopted in Massachusetts) and given that the Board has not previously approved a CSST product with special lightning protection installation provisions;
3. WHEREAS, certain CSST manufacturers have informed the Board that, when applicable, the additional bonding of CSST piping must be performed by licensed electricians because the new bonding requirements are an enhanced version of bonding required to protect buildings from ground faults, which fall within the purview of electricians and given that these manufacturers previously acknowledged that the additional bonding may not be authorized in Massachusetts, or in the alternative, if authorized, may not be enforceable in Massachusetts by any relevant authorities;
4. WHEREAS, based on the limited information before it that the additional bonding was required for public safety, the Board temporarily rescinded product approval for CSST piping on November 26, 2008 to allow for resolution of the enforcement/requirement of extra bonding by the relevant authorities having jurisdiction;
5. WHEREAS, on January 16, 2009, the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations issued an interpretation finding that additional bonding required by manufacturers would not violate the Massachusetts Electrical Code but made no statement on the enforceability of said requirements.

Now, therefore, the Board, after due consideration and in conjunction with meetings held with the manufacturers, immediately reinstates the previously approved CSST products in Massachusetts pursuant to these provisions;

1. The Board typically requires products to meet national standards for assurances that they are safe for public use; however, the Board has been unable to identify any national standard for protection of CSST piping (or any piping in general) from indirect lightning strikes. Therefore, pending the adoption of such a standard, and, solely based on evidence provided by manufacturers, the Board accepts the following measures as mitigation for damages from indirect lightning strikes:
   1. Direct Bonding of CSST piping – Manufacturers have provided evidence from a testing center, Lightning Technologies Inc. of Pittsfield, Massachusetts, that additional bonding of CSST products via a bonding jumper helps mitigate damages from indirect lightning strikes.
   2. One other manufacturer, OmegaFlex, has also provided evidence from Lightning Technologies Inc. of Pittsfield, Massachusetts, that its product, also mitigates the damages from indirect lightning strikes due in part to a special jacket material.
2. Using a bonding jumper with CSST falls outside the scope of plumbing and gas fitting, therefore plumbers cannot be required or otherwise held responsible for adhering to manufacturer’s instructions regarding such bonding (be it direct or other types covered by the electrical code). It appears that licensed electricians, adhering to the regulations/codes adopted by the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations, have exclusive jurisdiction over the additional CSST bonding. Therefore, if the manufacturer’s instructions require use of a bonding jumper, then such work shall be done in accordance with applicable law, which includes the pulling of any required electrical permits.
3. Instructions from manufacturers often reference adherence to the “latest edition” of NFPA 54 which is ambiguous. As the 2009 edition requires a type of direct bonding, the Board, via this policy, places the burden on manufacturers to clarify whether such bonding will be required for that particular product.
4. The Board is adopting this policy based on manufacturer representations that their efforts at mitigating indirect lightning strikes are effective. Should the Board receive evidence to the contrary, or a new standard be adopted which the manufacturer’s do not adhere to, the Board reserves the right to reconsider this policy as well as past and future product approvals, to the extent allowed by law and in the best interests of public safety.
5. Like all other plumbing and gas products, manufacturers must seek Board approval prior to making any other changes to their installation instructions. New CSST products will be similarly reviewed to ensure that steps have been taken to mitigate the effects of indirect lightning strikes.
6. It shall be the duty of manufacturer’s to educate their Massachusetts installers of the above provisions as soon as possible.