Indirect Water Heater V.s. Tankless

22rifle

roflol!

nhmaster3015

I can only put it out there. I can not make a blind man see.

22rifle

Yep. You done good! But stupid can't be fixed.

JamesNLA

Well, I understand both sides. And I will venture to say I have more experience with tankless installation and design than everyone on this board...combined. Riffle and nhmaster make valid points and they are not to simply be dismissed for the sake of being into tankless. I am more into tankless than the damn manufacturers themselves. That said I have enough experience in installation of all sorts of setups and designs to tell you all tankless is not for everyone. Tankless is not really an "investment" by definition. An investment is when one puts up money an expects to get more money back in return. A car is not usually an investment....Untill recently a home is an investment....the stock market is an investment. One doesn't buy a Toyota Prius in the hopes to sell it for more than what they initially paid for it. Now, with respect to tankless and the poster Installing a tankless is not usually just a simple throw it up on the wall and have a nice day. As the consumer reports - report mentions...costly gas line upgrades.....expensive venting. One thing that most ppl do not appreciate is what Rifle mentioned...roof penitrations. I personally charge 600 for a roof peni in a roofed home. New build...obviously it's a no brainer. Point is all these things do add up, and they add up quickly. Tankless is not for everyone. Understand I have a very high closing rate when I go out to look at a home for a tankless. I have that luxury becasue I have worked my ass off over the past 5 or so years I have specialized in tankless. I know how homes are built...at least in my markets. I know how the utilities are set up and I know all the rules to install tankless, code compliant and setup a plan that will yeild years of uninterrupted service. Point is if you are going to sell / install these things you better do your homework. At the same time one needs to have great judgment in weather or not to sell a tankless or go conventional. Out of all the jobs I close with respect to hot water...I'd say about 20% of them are conventional tanked heaters. It just doesn't make sense for everyone. I don't want to get all into it on the micro details of why and how I do things like this, lets just say I sleep very well knowing I am not screwing people over when I know damn well they can't afford my systems (or me) or if it just won't make sense.

However there is alot of bad info out there....some of the gentlemen on these boards may or may not know the difference between the tankless of 30 years ago and todays heaters. The only thing that is the same is the word tankless. Forced air versus gravity B vent. The mechanical thermostat versus todays computer controlled systems....etc..etc...
And at the same time Tankless is not the holy grail to the hot water industry. I know more than anyone how the manufactures are. I read the data they put out and take it with a grain. Lab test and real world findings are two very different things....believe that.

To sum up the whole is tankless worth it or now, one can CHOOSE to look at things other than just the slight difference in the gas bill. Wait, first and foremost electric tankless is just a bad idea. It's a crap design and really has only few viable options. A standard residential application is not one of them. The two lav bathroom at a small condo complex might be one of them....

Here's some quick numbers - to call them average is almost a stretch:

Tankless unit $ 950
Isolation valves $120
installation materials $ 400-4000
Installation labor $ 800-4000
tax - misc $400

There is no such thing as average on the internet where one guy on the East coast needs the whole shebang and the Left coaster needs just the minumim....There is just no average, but that is not my point

Call the installation 3000 for sake of my little late night post;

We will call the price of installing a new tanked heater 1100.

Now, if your talking to me about hot water that usually means your either out of hot water or your garage is wet and you have to turn on and off the shutoff every time one wants hot water. Now pay attention here. Regardless if you buy tankless or tanked...your about to spend some money so:

Initial visit I sell a tanked heater for 1100
In 10 years I install another tanked heater for 1100

There is 2200 right there - our tankless cost 3000 (that is a fairly fair price) We are left with an 800 difference for tanked.

The average savings I see are this: for a family of 2 it's usually about 20 - 40 bucks a month for a family of 4 to 6 I typically see 50-80 in monthly savings. Lets take the middle at 40 per month of savings....
In ten years that is 400 and in twenty years that is 800.

So in 20 years we have finally broke even.
Take into account the maintinance. I charge 200 to go to your place and service the unit. I flush the unit based on the age...the temp of water requested...of course the water hardness. I also check the gas pressures off the line with the stove and FAU at full blast. If the gas line is not exposed this is the next best thing, if it is I can just do the math to see if the installed line is up to par. Understand I do alot of service's of heaters that I didn't install. I also check the internal manifold pressures for low limit and high limit too. All these things tell me what condition the heater is in and it's efficiency. I also inspect the flow sensor. I keep 3 of them in my truck and charge people 20 bucks for my time getting them from the manufacturers as they are no charge to me. I also go through all the computer settings (tankless dependant) I look for error codes, I look for burner ignite request versus actual flame up, I inspect the fan blades for buildup as any slowing of the fan can cause issues. If the tankless is given clean combustable air to burn, this will not be an issue....but most guys don't think about these things during their planning.

What I also do, is teach the home owners how to do the flush themselves. They are only taught the flush and none of the other things I do. Should an error pop up or whatever, I want a call not harry opening up a unit and putting his useless hands inside. I show them in the owners manuals where it is actually part of their warranty that they maintain the unit. If I charged them 200 per year that's 2400 per decade...that hurts the bottom line. At the same time I have almost all of my clients tell me to just come and do it...but I do offer it.

So we were broke even after 20 years plus 200 for me to come and teach you how to flush.

Right now, Socal Gas is offering a $200 cash rebate, and a little birdy told me that come Jan 1 2009 there will be the return of the Federal $300 Income Tax rebate. The way I explain that to my clients is "if you owe 1000 in income tax, you now owe 700". Kinda puts a tangible aspect to it....but I hate rebates - I hate filling them out I hate waiting for them. That's just me!!

So basically you see the numbers from my perspective. Give or take accordingly. Having a great knowledge of tankless had led me to become very good at this. There are alot of things I am not too good at...this isn't one of those things. THis whole debate of the indirect versus tankless is really boxers or briefs IMO. If indirect was so brilliant, tankless wouldn't have a market AND vice versa.
It is very rare to see boiler systems on the west coast...at least in So Cal. Indirect tanked systems is almost even more rare. East coast...different story. If I moved to the East coast tomorrow I would have to beg one of you guys to let me come work for you just to learn all those systems to be competint.

I'm not interested in telling respected members they are right or wrong. I have my opinion and my experiences as do they....I respect all of them. To Rifle and NHmaster I sincearly hope you do not think I am taking sides because I truley understand what you are saying. I know the indirects are efficient, they are just not my cup of tea. That said if you look at the Noritz and other manu's install manuals...it's the same damn thing. "optional" storage tank with a tankless feeding it......I think I will spend some time thinking about how to possibly incorporate the indirect, I can easily see smaller apts and hotels with recirc systems being able to utilize it. Newer tankless units are now incorporating small 3/4 gallon SS tanks to help eliminate the dredded "cold water sandwich".

To the other guy posting...never EVER restrict the outlet flow with a ball valve. Do you have any idea the kind of words that would come out of my mouth if I walked upon that setup? A ball valve IS NOT to be used as a pressure reducing valve. Do your homework - start reading the installation manuals about 20 times....I do.

__________________
"....And then we all switch places when I ring the bell"
-Adrock

nhmaster3015

Nice post and very good explanation of your opinion. I must say also that though I have a very hard time justifying the cost vs payback ratio for these things, we do sell them. We also install solar systems. The truth is that some folks just flat out want these things. Either because they wish to ignore the numbers or more likely because they want to one up the neighbor. Hell, some folks just have to have all the bells and whistles. But in every case the customer is fully advised of the operational parameters as well as the service obligations. The only thing I would have argument with is that the new units are far diferent than the old ones. Get hold of a 25 year old Paloma and disect it. There ain't a whole lot of differences other than the solid state controller.

KillerToiletSpider

There are other reasons for wanting a tankless heater than saving money, in some cases it is space, we installed a 4 tankless set up in a restaraunt because they did not have room for a boiler and a three hundred gallon storage tank. In some cases it is something completely silly, I installed one for my sister just so her husband could sit in the shower on Saturday morning for an hour and a half without running out of hot water.

__________________
A flush is better than a full house.

22rifle

JamesNLA, first of all, I shot off at the mouth without thinking through it enough to make sure I gathered the correct information and that I made everything I said clear. That said, I am not against tankless. In fact, for the right applications, I love them. I am Rinnai certified but give slight preference to Noritz. If I build a house I will strongly consider tankless and will probably go with tankless.

My complaint is not that someone likes tankless. it's that the guy was mouthing off nonsense, bashing pros, and all done while making it crystal clear he had no clue what he was talking about. He isn't stupid for liking tankless. He just is. Anyone that tells you to solve hard water problems with a sediment filter needs to shut up and ask questions instead of insulting professionals even if the professionals are wrong.

ct plumber

Ive put in a couple of these for the people that wanted to pay for something of that nature$$.There is a ton of things that could go wrong,i think we are going to be taking these things out for good in 5-10yrs,i dont think they can keep up with high demand and people arnt going to spend money to buy 2 of them to run in series.

KillerToiletSpider

I installed a Takagi tankless in a bakery 14 years ago, it gets yearly maintenance and works just fine, and frees up the space that a commercial water heater would take up.

__________________
A flush is better than a full house.

22rifle

Restaurants are one of the sweetest applications for a tankless wh.

LNG24

Don't install a tankless in a house with a well!

I was all for tankless. I still want tankless, but it simply will not work as described. After talking to people who own them, they are not as advertised. At least not here in NY! Tankless might be good in mild and warm climates, but they can not keep up with the cold water here in Southern New York. I even looked into 1 gallon wall mounted boilers and they still would have trouble. I was able to find high efficiency gas fired boilers that are super tiny that will work for my situation. Whole House Heat and Hot Water.

I even search in Europe where these have been around for many many years.

TK03

I think the manufacturer of these products and how they market them tell all. I have not seen the comparison to an efficient boiler and good lifetime warranty indirect water heat which only has a circulator and aquastat to worry about. I have seen the comparison to domestic hot water coils, electric and chimney vented products. What was not addressed is it takes more energy to heat moving water than still water. The indirect is not connected to a chimney, the biggest heat thief in the home as a stand alone water heater is.
I also agree everything has an application but not all applications fit everything. The return on investment is what I look at. The best ROI is lowest price, least maintenance, longest life. How much per year average cost.