[22rifle]

Copied and pasted from a post I made in another thread.

But that's OK. If y'all want the plumbing section here to basically be a DIY section for other trades then who am I to argue. I thought it was something different and was sorely disappointed. But some of you seem to think that is how it should be.

I respect the other trades enough to not go ask them how to do DIY stuff on here. I don't see Ron the Plumber over in the electrical forum asking how to run a circuit for the disposer he just installed. Come to think of it, I don't see the electricians asking DIY stuff over here either. Maybe that's because they understand the concept of mutual respect between trades.

Incidently, I am currently wiring my own small shop. (Legal where I live.) I am doing a very good job of it but I had one question. I thought about the fact that according to how a lot of you see it, I could go on the electrical forum and ask my question. But I rejected that and found my information elsewhere. I would even like to post a picture of my subpanel in their forum. I think I did a nice job and I would like for them to see it. But just because it might be perceived as a taunt (see, a non-electricain can do good work too so what's with you guys?) I will not be doing that.

Some are more interested in protecting their jobs. I understand that to some point but I also disagree with it to some extent.

My bigest thing besides the legal issues and the respect issues is the questioner's best interest. Many of these questions are proof enough that the person is in over their head. Let me digress a bit to provide some background.

I hear and see the attitude that there isn't all that much to plumbing. I know there is and the lack of respect for my chosen trade does bother me. But that is really a minor issue. Who cares? Life doesn't revolve around plumbers or me.

But there is a much bigger issue. I get sick and tired of seeing people screw themselves or others with hack jobs or even jobs that endanger health and life. Some of the stuff we professional plumbers see literally makes us shudder at times. I don't know how many times I have said "Wow, they are lucky they are alive." Plumbing is not something you mess with. It only LOOKS simple.

In real life I will (at my own cost and time) spend time to make sure a DIYer does it right to protect themselves and others. In fact, tonight I have an appointment with a friend who is determined to do the plumbing in his new addition. He can't afford me and is doing it himself. (10 kids in a 3 bedrrom, 1 bath house, one income, and all that) I said, "look, at least let me tell you how to do it so you don't do something that will hurt you or your family". Am I crazy? Yeah. But I care more about it being done right (read safely!) than about another job. And this is not a rare example. I need to quit it but I can't help it. I care too much about it being done right and safely.

When it comes to the DIY posts on here, if it isn't ilegal, or if the person isn't coming acorss as a bit shifty (illegal), or if they aren't coming in with a whole pile of lip, then they are likely over their heads with the whole thing and have no business doing the project. In those cases anything less than "Your plumber will know" is a disservice to them. If I could walk onto the job site I could help them. But over the internet it's a completely different ball game.

Take for example the guy with the water hammer problem. Besides the point that he is almost assuredly illegally doing plumbing and/or lying to us, there is no way to know that your advice is correct with what he provided. It's the internet man. The only way you can make an accurate diagnosis is to be on the job site itself and look at the big picture. What if there is a very real safety issue on that job that is actually causing his problem? Adding another shock arrestor isn't going to fix that. No plumber who truly understands what is at stake will answer his questions. But to some of you, it just looks like we are only being evasive because we want more work created for us. (Again, all this is assuming he was not doing work illegally and not lying to us. Assumptions only a fool would make under the circumstances. But I used those assumptions for the sake of illustating my point.)

Do you know how many times I have heard "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do this plumbing (or heating) job. Then later be called in to fix a royal screwup at massive cost to the customer? And in a case or two, I was blamed for the mess even though the guy did not follow a single one of my diagrams or written instructions.

I may come across as crusty, arrogant, and grumpy on here. I really ain't that kind of guy when you take out the factors I am talking about above. I just get tired of the BS and then when a site I recently found and was excited over has the plumbing section flooded with more of the same BS, I tend to get grumpy.

But hey, who cares? I was fast getting disillusioned with this place and about to just sorta ease on out of here again when an alternative opened up. So all the wannabes and remodelers can be the pros on here and answer all the plumbing questions from now on. Not that I am disillusioned about my importance, but speaking overall, the flood of DIY crap in the plumbing forum created a situation that resulted in a loss to this forum. Your loss. I won't be shedding any tears over it.

[neolitic]

Here we go, all in context!

22,
I wasn't into the guy's other thread,
so I missed the carry over.
Still seems that there is a place to
let the lowly remodeling guys and
GC's get to know your take on at
least design and layout type stuff.
After all, you don't usually come in and
just randomly decide where the sink is
and where you want the DW and fridge.
Then let the sparky just put his rough
where he feels like it and hope everything
works out?
I get it when you ignore a "how-to",
but where and why can help make life
easier for all of us.
Maybe you haven't noticed, or maybe
it doesn't happen for you, but if I
have everything drawn up and decided
before the rough-ins start
things really do go smoother for everyone.
And I hope everyone makes more money
and gets fewer ulcers that way too!

It took me a lot of time and mistakes
to get to the point where I can make
most jobs run smoothly.
Everyone wants it instantly now.

Maybe it's harder to find the kind of
old time tradesmen I came up with
who would take the time to explain
what, when, and why.
Maybe not enough guys care about
what the other trades do, or why
until they need to know something?

Seems like this could be a place for
some of that (as well as a few laughs)
and still let someone know when you
think he's stepping over the line.

Geeze, I'm starting to get all warm
and fuzzy here.

[Grumpyplumber]

Neo,
It's one thing if you (and I mean You) come here and ask what clearance a toilet needs from a vanity because you're not sure what your plumber is saying.
I'm happy to help you in that respect, despite your rooting for the wrong football team...I still like ya.
It's another thing altogether when a newbie with "remodeler" in his listed trade with 3 posts who just joined 2 days ago is asking how to plumb a bathroom.
Sorry, I know many of the other trades may find our lack of interest in offering free advice distastful, but it's our choice...I don't see that changing any time soon, certainly appears the plumbers here aren't interested in offering free advice to someone who has decided to skip paying one of us in the first place.

If ya really wanna get down to brass taxes, it's illegal in my state and most other states, technically I'm aiding & abetting when I offer advice on DIY.

I have seen countless threads started by newbies that get the "treatment" from you guys, yet it's now objectionable when plumbers do the same...interesting.

[neolitic]

Originally Posted by Grumpyplumber

....
I have seen countless threads started by newbies that get the "treatment" from you guys, yet it's now objectionable when plumbers do the same...interesting.

No not at all!
That part I get, it just seems
that there is some common ground
for all of us to educate each other,
even if it's informing the guy he's
out of his bailiwick.
And like I said before, it's a different
thing telling why or where, than how.
All of us have to decide who's legit
and who's out of his league.
I'd discuss header sizes with Max,
but not a guy who is talking about
the "fat thingy over the door."

Just don't want to see you guys go
away pissed when there is so much
we can contribute to each other
without giving up the farm!
I try to see where you guys are
coming from, and take the points.
That last thread about the multiple
shower head thing was classic.
I like to see that kind of give
and take here.
I do mean it, this is a place where
we can all get an education about
each other's trades, and that can't be all
bad for anyone.

Hope you see my point, I don't expect you
guys to run a free plumbing apprenticeship
here.

Like wise I respect your knowledge,
even considering your lack of taste in
football teams.

[genecarp]

everyone needs to lighten up alittle imo, lets face it there is nothing here that you plumbers know that is not readily available information, your plumbers , not MASONS (AS IN THE SECRET SOCIETY). for me , if i came in here to ask a plumbing question, it would be purely in the spirit of communicating and sharing with some fellow tradesmen. my master plumber is available for me 24-7 for any real question i might have. as for some new guy asking how to roughin a bathroom, i agree this is not the place for that sh##. but again it has been my observation that some of the plumbers here take themselves WAY to serious,

[22rifle]

Originally Posted by genecarp

lets face it there is nothing here that you plumbers know that is not readily available information

Ah, but knowing how to use that information is a different story altogether.

[Nathan]

ContractorTalk.com is a forum for all contractors. In fact our slogan is "Where The Trades Meet!". The idea is that we can all come together and learn from each other. For one thing business, marketing, and sales discussion is almost universal which I think is a strong point for this site. We also have trade specific forums which is a great place for trade talk but all the topics have cross posting in them between all the trades. I don't think your going to get around that and I don't think it happens just in the plumbing section. I also wouldn't say it's a bad thing in most cases.
As others have said, no one expects you to be offering a free advice line here and frankly if you don't want to respond then don't. But the nature of this forum is to have interaction between all the trades.

We do have www.PlumbingZone.com now which IS just for professional plumbers so I'd suggest hanging out there if this really gets on your nerves. But I still think there is value in this group trade discussion. Everyone has a lot to learn from everyone else!

[threaderman]

I keep quiet for self-preservation.I don't think many have the balls to do what I've done which is moved my business far from anyone I know or anywhere I've bein.Different codes,different people,different way of doing business,different culture.The business is growing at the pace I had planned on,steady and not too fast.That is until Sept. when I'm going to shake up the market a little more here .I choose not to give away my knowledge though as I am trying to survive and solidify my position in this market.I feel sorry for the apprentice and Journeyman plumbers.
On a side note ,there are more than a handful of people that I respect on this forum that can pm me for advice if they care to.

[Grumpyplumber]

Nathan, I agree in respect to the "meeting place for all trades"..but the question here is of profitably & illegally dabbling in trades your not licensed or insured for.

I think the underlying tension here revolves around the current market, fact is that many smaller contractors will be forced to lower bids to keep from starving in some cases.
Problem is that a there will be plumbers, electricians and other contractors will be passed over as a result.
This will directly affect legitimate, established contractors who are then forced to compete with them.
Most of the older senior trades members here know to respect that line, if your taking risks with liability and legality to facilitate profit, it appears we're not up to offering free advice on how to avoid paying us.

I said it above, I have no problem telling Neo his plumbers layout might need some tweaking for example, I have no problem discussing what stock might be best (despite his awful football team)...especially when I know these guys legitimately hire us and are looking for differing perspectives.

However, when we all watch a new poster join, then ask blatent questions regarding doing work he has no right to do...well, hopefully you understand....it's in the best interest of all trades as a whole.

As for the exchange of information, I have reaped major benifits in the marketing and business forums by both offering and taking advice (admittedly taken alot more than offer, by far)...there is a wealth of knowledge there thats useful to ALL of us.
But there are lines, I joined this forum (read my very first post) on the premise that we were all professionals here, that we all knew what lines not to cross and how to respect each others trades.

[Nathan]

Look, I'm not saying people should be doing things that they aren't licensed to do... I'm just saying that there are benefits to learning from each other and that if you see a post that you don't want to answer because its a new guy or it's dangerous then pass it by. But, these sub forums aren't necessarily designed to be JUST for people from that trade.
For example when I was a construction manager building new homes I might have a question about a plumbing, electrical, or whatever because I want to make sure it's done right. I'm not licensed to do it and in fact I wasn't doing it... but I was responsible for making sure it was done right and I had homeowners to look out for.

I know it's a bit confusing at times but I would just suggest passing by and not responding to a post that you see as dangerous. Otherwise I'd encourage you to view it as a fair trade between the trades.

[MALCO.New.York]

Grumpyplumber

22rifle

Might the names have a bit to do with the retorts?

At least persons are warned up-front! Can not say they were not!

Me? I am just obnoxious on occasion for the sake of be obnoxious!

[bcradio]

Originally Posted by 22rifle

Ah, but knowing how to use that information is a different story altogether.

Ah, but thats what how to manuals/books are for

isn't the world great

[genecarp]

THIS SHOULD BE TURNED INTO A REALITY SHOW, if anyone needs carpentry design, concrete, or contracting advice, i have no problem giving it, i do not feel it is my duty to protect the trade in this way, i am confident enough with the clientel and buisness that i have built, that i dont see some new guy as a threat to my livelyhood. now whether or not i have the patiance to answer a beginners questions is another thing.

[neolitic]

Originally Posted by Nathan

ContractorTalk.com is a forum for all contractors. In fact our slogan is "Where The Trades Meet!". The idea is that we can all come together and learn from each other. For one thing business, marketing, and sales discussion is almost universal which I think is a strong point for this site. We also have trade specific forums which is a great place for trade talk but all the topics have cross posting in them between all the trades. I don't think your going to get around that and I don't think it happens just in the plumbing section. I also wouldn't say it's a bad thing in most cases.
As others have said, no one expects you to be offering a free advice line here and frankly if you don't want to respond then don't. But the nature of this forum is to have interaction between all the trades.

We do have www.PlumbingZone.com now which IS just for professional plumbers so I'd suggest hanging out there if this really gets on your nerves. But I still think there is value in this group trade discussion. Everyone has a lot to learn from everyone else!

Originally Posted by Nathan

Look, I'm not saying people should be doing things that they aren't licensed to do... I'm just saying that there are benefits to learning from each other and that if you see a post that you don't want to answer because its a new guy or it's dangerous then pass it by. But, these sub forums aren't necessarily designed to be JUST for people from that trade.
For example when I was a construction manager building new homes I might have a question about a plumbing, electrical, or whatever because I want to make sure it's done right. I'm not licensed to do it and in fact I wasn't doing it... but I was responsible for making sure it was done right and I had homeowners to look out for.

I know it's a bit confusing at times but I would just suggest passing by and not responding to a post that you see as dangerous. Otherwise I'd encourage you to view it as a fair trade between the trades.

Well said Nathan.
Always grateful for your input,
and creating this space to begin with.

And even allowing people with bad taste in football on here.



If nothing else this exchange has
helped get my mind off this
sprained foot.

[22rifle]

Originally Posted by bcradio

Ah, but thats what how to manuals/books are for

isn't the world great

Plumbing how to manuals and books still only present raw data. Knowing know how to use that data correctly is what makes me not only a professional plumber, but a doggone good one to boot.

Bedsides, those manuals only present a basic overview of all that I have to know to do my job correctly. No one can read a manual and be a good plumber. Or a carpenter.

[Grumpyplumber]

Originally Posted by genecarp

THIS SHOULD BE TURNED INTO A REALITY SHOW, if anyone needs carpentry design, concrete, or contracting advice, i have no problem giving it, i do not feel it is my duty to protect the trade in this way, i am confident enough with the clientel and buisness that i have built, that i dont see some new guy as a threat to my livelyhood. now whether or not i have the patiance to answer a beginners questions is another thing.

There lies the trouble.
Obviously you'd know what it's like to sit through 4 hours of classes two nights a week that you paid for on an apprentices salary, fighting off the urge to sleep after a day in hot attic spaces, or freezing crawl spaces, digging trenches, coring concrete & drilling overhead joists.
studying for the state exam that you're not allowed to take until you have 5 years of full time experience & 500 hours of schooling, with w-2's to proove it, those years you sometimes thought to yourself that maybe you might not make it, maybe you should just go to college or get into something thats not so filthy & strenuous.
But Gene, you made it...you met that criteria, you now have the license & time in, you paid the price...
When you finally aced the masonry exam, the remodeling exam & the drywall exam...after all those long hard years you are still able to give those lessons away freely.
That makes you a much better person than I...by far.

[Grumpyplumber]

Originally Posted by bcradio

Ah, but thats what how to manuals/books are for

isn't the world great

Those books, sold most frequently from HD, have made me a lot of money.

[Grumpyplumber]

Originally Posted by MALCO.New.York

Grumpyplumber

22rifle

Might the names have a bit to do with the retorts?

At least persons are warned up-front! Can not say they were not!

Me? I am just obnoxious on occasion for the sake of be obnoxious!

Been meaning to ask...what do you do for a living?

[genecarp]

Originally Posted by Grumpyplumber

There lies the trouble.
Obviously you'd know what it's like to sit through 4 hours of classes two nights a week that you paid for on an apprentices salary, fighting off the urge to sleep after a day in hot attic spaces, or freezing crawl spaces, digging trenches, coring concrete & drilling overhead joists.
studying for the state exam that you're not allowed to take until you have 5 years of full time experience & 500 hours of schooling, with w-2's to proove it, those years you sometimes thought to yourself that maybe you might not make it, maybe you should just go to college or get into something thats not so filthy & strenuous.
But Gene, you made it...you met that criteria, you now have the license & time in, you paid the price...
When you finally aced the masonry exam, the remodeling exam & the drywall exam...after all those long hard years you are still able to give those lessons away freely.
That makes you a much better person than I...by far.

YOU MAKE A VALID POINT, SOMETIMES I FORGET JUST WHAT IT TOOK TO GET HERE, THANKS

[Ron The Plumber]

Why did we even go to school, we should have just become GC's, GC's don't need school to become a plumber, that just do it. All this time the state convensed me I need a plumbing license to do plumbing work, forced me to school, work long hours in the ditches, take a closed book exam and a pratical exam.

Boy I feel cheated in my career.

All I really needed was a GC license.