Non U To Union Question

grizl

I've got a few, and yeah I might go to the local with more questions, but to start, could anyone answers this?
Would all our current employees not be allowed to work for us until they passed there requirements?

22rifle

If you allow those punks to intimidate you into joining the union you aren't much of a man.

You better have a better reason than that cowardly behavior for doing this.

Celtic

Many times this must be answered by the particular local.

Here is another question for you to think about...
IF your guy does NOT pass a test, will he:
a) Not be allowed to become a local man
b) Be given the opportunity for schooling [aka apprenticeship] to advance his skills

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nap

what a brilliant post 22. How about letting grizl ask his questions and get some answers. Your post sounds more intimidating than what "those punks" are doing.


grizl, in my area, if we area talking carpenters, it is not all that difficult to get a card. I don;t approve of a guy "buying" his card but it happens in the carpenters union. Not always, but too often for me. If there are any other skilled trades involved, they have to pass a test to become a journeyman. If they do not pass the test, they are offered apprenticeship. The union does make an effort to accomodate a contractor and his employees in this type of a sitution.
If the carpenters union is not "selling" cards, they act about like the other trades. They sell cards in time of great need for carpenters so the availbility would depend on the job outlook at the time.

as celtic stated, this is a question you do need to ask of the union leaders, if you get to that point.

concretemasonry

It is not a one-way street unless the confrontation is created on both sides.

I knew many union masons that would take a withdrawal or leave during the summer to work non-union jobs that were paid on performance (piecework or salary) and they could make more money. They were good enough to get the premium.

The union knew, but this allowed apprentices and others to get more work and experience.

In the fall, when things slowed up, the good masons could alway get back into the union ranks because of their abilities and work all winter and most of the year on union jobs. - Sort of like a contractor going "double breasted".

Much depends on the common sense of the union leadership and understanding that they have to provide for a way for new masons to learn and work. - Apprentice programs are usually a bunch of drawn out political B.$. that are necessary to keep "correctness". This drag on time allows the voting members to keep their jobs for a while.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

22rifle

You don't actually believe that. You just don't like to see the union questioned.

But seriously, if the OP's motive for joining the union is driven by the intimidation of those thugs then what I said stands.

Some of us have big problems with union people acting like thugs.

Some of us aren't intimidated by union thugs.

And some of us aren't afraid to point out to a man that he is allowing the intimation of thugs to determine how he runs his business.

Celtic

I do.

At least those "those punks who intimidate you into joining the union" may call him a coward to his face - not sitting safely behind a computer...located god knows where.

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22rifle

Dude, if you honestly believe that the words of an anonymous guy like me on the internet, pointing out to a man he is giving in to thugs, is more intimidating that those thugs getting in the guys face in person, then perhaps we should just ignore each other from here on. I don't do well with stupidity and/or Kool-Aid drinking like that.

To the OP. Look at this thread closely. If Celtic's union fan boy driven "logic" makes sense to you, then go for it. You and the union thugs deserve each other.

But if you wish to run your OWN company instead of having your business decisions dictated by thugs, then do some deep, hard thinking about this.

I don't have a dog in this hunt. In fact, I have a ton of respect for the unions in some areas. But intimidation, thuggery, and immoral constraints of a man really get me going. All I wish is for you to really think about why you are doing what you are doing. Based on this thread you are making business decisions based on the intimidation of some thugs. If that makes sense to you then you better go union.

Snow Man

You would not qualify to be a union contractor here with your stipulations.

Again , If i show up , fresh out of working at a burger king as a dishwasher, because your B.A. has just sold me a card..... with intentions of performing your tasks , alongside a man who has been performing the task for more than 25 years , expect to pay me the same rate as him.

Spread the wealth ........The Obama Regime

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concretemasonry

I have worked in New England (where unions are political and relate to certain ethic groups), Michigan (which is blindly one sided), and the Republic of Wisconsin (which is a very uniques animal). Based on that I have seen that there is a wide range of opinions even after having to go through the Teamster regional arbitrations where the management panel members often vote a gainst the company while the union is not always one sided. - Usually we knew the decision before we went through the hassle.

It all depends on the local situation and the ability to work things out mutually and not declare war too early. When it comes to unions, you are buying a labor commitment/resource. - The best buyers are also good salemen.

__________________
Dick

Engineer, designer and consultant recently active domestically and internationally on construction and design in about 35 countries.

Snow Man

Example.................

You have been a union carpenter for 29 years.
I just bought a card from your B.A. for a weeks wages.
I show up with the 2 years experience on your job .
Were going to hang 100lb oak doors in a hospital.
Im getting the same rate as the 29 year man and I take smoke breaks every 20 minutes.

Catch my drift?

Socialism ...................The Obama Regime style.

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Serving Delaware County & Philadelphia Pa
610 457-9721

nap

Yes, I do, I have no problem with the union being questioned. Any entity that fears the light does not have my respect. Shine away.


I can see your point but what I see is it has come down to making a business decision that will allow his company to get rid of what he is facing. If he were going to be injured by joining the union, I can see the resistance but based upon grizls posts, this is not only not going to be a big expense as feared but can acutally be a benefit to him and his company. Being able to call a union hall and get 50 guys sent out on a job is a great benefit when needed. Being able to senf them back to the hall simply by writing a slip of paper is a great benefit.

Ya, like me. If you have been following my conversation with grizl, not only have I expressed this but I have tried to offer what I could to help him deal with it. I do not agree with strong arm tactics anymore than you do.

Look beyond the thugery and look at grizls position. All I said to do is investigate this rather than simply attempting to blow it off. He still has the option of saying no. I am not in his shoes so I will not pretend to be. He is going to have to make whatever decision he does. I only suggested what I did because that seems to be the best solution to his problem with causing the least cost and problem.

Fine, so let grizl investigate the situation and make his determination on this. If it is not a good move for him, I would expect him to not become union but he is looking out for his mental welfare and his business. There is no need to attempt to make him feel bad for doing that, regardless of the reason.

this was the intimidating statement, in my opnion:

I hate to tell you but because the internet is what it is, there are people on the internet that could tell us who you are, where you are, what you do for a living as well as a hobby and what direction you turn when you leave your drive on your way to work.



I was quite surprised when, on another forum, one poster suggested another poster stop his harrassing posts. The harasser blew him off figuring the same thing you do. After a few more warnings, we started to see things like;

the harassers first name (with a threat of his surname being publicized)
the fact he was in arrears with his child aupport payments.
the city and state the guy lived in
and several other items that did show the one poster did in fact have access to this guys information. Quite impressive.

Privacy is only in your mind.



I would suggest he uses business driven logic.

Apparently you never have been or worked for a union contractor. The involvement in running a persons business is nothing such as you have suggested.

each person has to make decisions concerning his life and business. The point is, they do have a choice and it is their decision.

pritch

It always amazes me that the union/non union threads devolves into a shouting match quicker than most any other, even the political ones. I've been a member of a union for a grand total of 1 day. They made me join the operators union to work on a drilling rig in So Cal about 30 years ago. For reasons I'll not go into here, it worked out that I had to leave town that very night

My dad was a union plumber, and he has been drawing a pension longer now than he worked. The union was good for him. That was in So Cal. Utah is a right-to-work State, so the unions are fairly weak here, but now I wish I had given it more thought. I guess I'm considered management now, so that door is shut for me. Oh well, not enough time left to make a difference now anyway.

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There's only enough money in this job for 1 guy to be goofing off. And that's me!

nap

and if you came to my company and could not perform, expect to get turned around and sent to the hall.

I do not have to keep who is sent me. If a person does not earn his keep, he doesn;t stay.

Snow Man

"They made me join"

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Snow Man

But he will get the same rate .

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Serving Delaware County & Philadelphia Pa
610 457-9721

Snobnd

I was in the union, Loc #24 & 43 Then one day a building fell down...28 carpenters,mason,concrete,steel workers were trapped. I helped for 7 days straight! No one made it out alive. The union asked me why I wasn't available to take the next job? I told them what I did for over a week (10 hours sleep) I was told that wasn't their Union, my dues are late, and get back to work (loc 210) - Brotherhood my as* I never went back after that!!!

http://bestforstratford.com/Lambianceplaza.html

nap

which I do not understand at all. He did say Utah was a right to work state. That means you cannot be forced to join a union and you cannot be denied employment in a company that has a union becuase of it.

I don't get it.

nailman

I have worked on many union jobs, My stepfather was a union contractor for years here in Cal. Union's here are mostly Hispanic now, with few english speaking workers many that have bought there cards. The union's here do commercial work only. The hall is packed with pepole that they do not have work for. They don't want you to work non union, but you must keep paying you due's. You have no control over your retirement what so ever. I have lost a 3rd. of mine sofar. would I go back to work for the union. NO way in hell.

Before you go union look into it real good!!! Do you really care about the guy's that work for you?
Do you have laborer's, what about them? Cal. has a laborer's union.
Ask you crew!!!

22rifle

I certainly hope this was not a veiled threat.

That said, my point was not that I am anonymous as in hidden, cannot be found, etc. My point was that relatively speaking, my words mean nothing. Neither do yours. We are just some dudes spouting off from behind a screen name.

Get it? It's an internet forum. You shouldn't be intimidated by a nameless guy on the internet's ideas.

The guy who claimed my post was more intimidating than those thugs was mouthing off stupidity. Probably drunk because few people are actually that stupid.

Note, I am not arguing that my post was not intimidating. I don't think it was, and I think anyone who would be intimidated by it needs to see a shrink. And you are free to disagree. But that is NOT what I am calling stupid. What I am calling stupid is claiming my initial post in this thread is more intimidating than a bunch of rude thugs showing up on your job site to try to use intimidation to make you join their union. That's my only point. Anyone who truly believes that has issues that can't be fixed on a stupid internet message board. They need professional help.